MSA vs Sho-Bud/Emmons

Bill Duncan · Post by **Bill Duncan** » 14 Mar 2009 5:40 pm

Kevin,

You are right, Bud Carter is certainly an outstanding pedal steel guitar designer, builder, and picker, to say the least. I am sure that Bruce Zumsteg,is too.

I still don't believe one can consistently pick out a particular brand of guitar in a blind test. That has been factually established.

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 14 Mar 2009 5:42 pm

Chris LeDrew wrote:J D, the last solo sounds best. (I first watched with eyes closed.) I have the same model guitar, probably same year, and it too has that same sound: sweet, with very haunting overtones. No fighting it for sustain and tone up top. It's not all in the hands IMO, even though Curly had two of the best.

I agree!

Both sound good, but the 'Bud has a more distinctive and appealing sound to my ears.

(I always overlook the fact that Curly was a great E9th player too.)

Bill Duncan · Post by **Bill Duncan** » 15 Mar 2009 8:15 am

Tony,

My question is: Could you have correctly picked out the brand of guitar from hearing them blind, without foreknowledge of their manufacturer?

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 16 Mar 2009 6:54 pm

It’s interesting not one person has come forward who claimed they had the ability to consistently identify an inherent tone in any specific guitar, nor has anyone mentioned they or someone they know has experimented and found anything contradictory to that which I’ve stated.

I further believe it’s clear I have no agenda or ulterior motive to pursue whether or not it’s possible to make such distinctions.

My only motivation is to seek the truth while doing everything I can to perpetuate the evolution of steel guitar. I believe it to be logical that until someone comes forward and displays what I would consider to be a remarkable ability to consistently identify an inherent tone in any specific brand of guitar, such notions of inherent tone entitlement should be considered a myth.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 16 Mar 2009 11:00 pm

From the MSA website. "SuperSlide has a distinctive, powerful and pure steel sound, yet it will fuzz, grunge and sustain like no other instrument while offering the possibility of new and innovative sounds which breed fresh ideas and create new musical personalities and opportunities".

Distinct definition-The American Heritage Dictionary=

1) Individual, discreet.
2) Different, unlike.
3) READILY PERCEIVED!
4) Explicit, UNQUESTIONABLE!

Bill Duncan, now you can argue with Maurice Anderson.

Bill Duncan · Post by **Bill Duncan** » 17 Mar 2009 3:30 am

Kevin,

I certainly like the way you describe the MSA, I tend to think of my guitar in that way.

I am constantly working to improve my tone. The MSA guitar I have does give me a distinct advantage in achieving good tone, it is a very stable, solid, well made instrument. The more I use it and compare it to others, the more I can see how advanced it is. It is a wonderful base for tone.

All that said, there is no inherent, recognizable tone in the MSA, or any other "brand" of guitar. Some guitars certainly do give a leg up in achieving great tone, but it is only a part of the equation. What is needed is a stable, solid, well made platform to start with, which is provided by many brands, especially the vintage MSA.

If you contend that there is a inherent tone in "brands" of guitars, then please tell me what design item puts it there, making it repeatable and inherent? I could be wrong, but I seem to be detecting from your statements that you know of a secret ingredient in consruction that Sho-Bud, Emmons, and Zum, had that was totally missing in MSA.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 17 Mar 2009 10:15 am

Bill, read the quote above from the MSA website. Those are not my words. They are on Mr. Anderson's website directly contradicting both yours and his statements. ?????????????

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 17 Mar 2009 10:54 am

Kevin, Kevin…..That which you stated should have been placed in the non-pedal section. However I’ll be glad to respond directly to you, (which is a courtesy you have yet to return) while bridging the gap between non-pedal and pedal guitars and hoping b0b allows it to stay on this thread.

From the MSA website: DISTINCTIVE……”YES…..as in the hands of each individual”.

POWERFUL AND PURE STEEL SOUND……”nothing contradictory here”. I further believe were a SuperSlide to be placed in a comparison evaluation with pedal guitars, there would still be no inherent distinction present.

“Grunge and sustain like no other instrument while offering the possibility of new and innovative sounds which breed fresh ideas and create new musical personalities and opportunities”.………The unique characteristics of steel guitar itself provides movable sustain like no other instrument, and that characteristic is the “voice of the steel guitar” which gave steel guitar it’s well deserved recognizable place with all “legitimate” instruments”. That voice when combined with distortion and other sound enhancement does indeed provide for new and innovative ideas unique only to steel guitar.

Most who have followed this thread have seen my repeated attempts to respectfully discuss this subject with you time and again. One would think that since you have such strong opposing views, AND you have likely had both the time and the opportunity to validate your position, that you would be anxious to come forward with the result of your findings and a statement to that effect which would validate your opinion. If you will simply announce you have the ability I’ll of course take you at your word knowing that in the near future you will be more than happy to prove what you claim is true.

Bill Duncan · Post by **Bill Duncan** » 17 Mar 2009 2:37 pm

Kevin,

I don't see anything contradictory on the MSA web site. My guitar sounds especially good, and a contributing reason is due to the quality of the design and construction of the MSA.

Any quality constructed guitar will sound good, but going to the extreme of claiming that brands of guitars have a signature, inherent, sound, that is consistently distinguishable in a blind test, has yet to be proved. Does it not?

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 19 Mar 2009 7:38 am

This is a good opportunity for me to say something I have never mentioned before, but I believe to be worth sharing.

The business competition between MSA, Sho-Bud and Emmons in the early years although fierce, was never even close to becoming personal. I had nothing but respect for the ethics of Shot, David and Harry (Jackson) and Ron (Lashley), which included an appreciation for the instruments they each produced.

To this day I have great respect for both David and Harry Jackson, consider them as friends, and admire and congratulate them for carrying on their families great tradition of building an exceptional instrument. I likewise have found the same to be true of Ron Lashley Jr. and his wife Rebecca, who are also carrying on their great family tradition.

Bill Duncan · Post by **Bill Duncan** » 19 Mar 2009 7:26 pm

Reece,

I remember learning in a management course I had to take years ago, that a company will take on the personality of it's manager.

Solid, dependable, cutting edge, with a heart! Sounds like MSA to me!

Kevin Hatton,

I do hope that nothing I have said in the course of this discussion has caused you to think I don't respect your opinion, because I do. I am sure you are a very talented and knowledgeable person. I may not agree with you, but it is not personal. Something else I am sure of is, that we both love the Pedal Steel Guitar! NO MATTER WHAT THE BRAND!

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 19 Mar 2009 7:43 pm

Danny Bates · Post by **Danny Bates** » 19 Mar 2009 10:47 pm

I hope this is related to this topic...

I had a friend tell me that he could only eat a certain brand of peanut butter. I took him to the store and I bought 3 brands. His favorite brand and two others that he said he hated. During a blindfolded test, he picked the wrong brand as his favorite.

I'd be curious to try a blindfold test with pedal steel guitars... not a recording, but in a room with the same amp.

Bill Duncan · Post by **Bill Duncan** » 20 Mar 2009 5:30 am

Danny, MSA did that. Some people could not pick out their own guitar!

Brian Herder · Post by **Brian Herder** » 20 Mar 2009 8:02 am

I've had a few MSA's over the years.. first off, let me say that I don't think I've ever heard a good player not sound great who's chosen guitar was an MSA. When playing one myself I was never thrilled with the tone.. or maybe it was just the response. The things were mechanical marvels at the time, and I guess still hold their own in that regard. I never felt "connected" when playing one.. no "road feel". Not a lot of resonance, or player feedback. Also, (another personal opinion) I never liked the look of a 12 string keyhead on a 10 string guitar, or the clunky look of the keyhead in general compared to the other brands in question, and the formica guitars with all of the plastic binding also lacked a certain design aesthetic. There was one black mica MSA that was bone stock that I thought sounded exceptional that Dave Mudgett had for a while, but that seemed to be an exception to the rule.. at least for the ones I have played. The weight is an issue too -though I'd be happy to tote a ZB Custom anywhere. So I guess, different strokes...

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 20 Mar 2009 9:59 am

Brian's right - the '74 black mica MSA Classic that I had sounded and felt very fine indeed. The only issue with that guitar for me was the weight, which was pushing 90 pounds in the case, and is the only reason I sold it. It was minty mint, and one of Jim Cohen's students bought it. It was the Chalker lookalike guitar in every way, and the C6 neck had that tone, not that I could play it anything like him.

If I had kept it, I would have changed the E9 pickup to a Lawrence 710 or something like that. But I would have left that C6 pickup alone - it sounded fantastic.

Definitely different strokes. Just 'cause you don't like something doesn't imply that it isn't just perfect for someone else. Different perceptions, preferences, tastes, and playing approaches simply can't be argued reasonably.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 21 Mar 2009 5:42 am

Brian H……The visual perceptions/implications you mention was the very reason MSA went to the time and expense of creating comparison evaluations as described within this thread.

Your comments were:

1. You did not like the “look” of the 12 string keyhead on a 10 string cabinet.
2. You did not like the “clunky look” of the keyhead.
3. You did not like the “plastic binding”.
4. The guitar lacked “certain design aesthetics”.

All the above objections, which formed your overall opinion were focused on the appearance of the older MSA guitars which obviously were not compatible with your perception of what you yourself wanted to see in a guitar design. You also said you liked the sound of a specific “black” MSA guitar, and the reason could also likely have been attributed to the “aesthetic appearance” of the specific color of black.

Our experiments revealed having the advantage of a visual perspective created a “mental over-ride” which provided the false impression that a specific guitar had a better sound/tone than the other. I believe it’s possible this also explains why you didn’t believe you got the “road feel” you mentioned.

In every instance of our evaluations, much to the participants surprise they could not consistently identify any specific guitar used in the comparison evaluations while not having the visual advantage.

I believe there are those who are convinced they can identify the inherent sound/tone of specific guitars, and that may be true, but not one person has come forward to say they can do it, have done it, or know of anyone who has. Kevin H. is the only one who has come close to insinuating (at least in my opinion) he has the ability to make such distinctions, however he has yet to make such a statement to that effect for reasons which will possibly eventually reveal themselves.

The old adage Dave M. mentioned, “different strokes for different folks” relative to this discussion, points toward the importance of overall design aesthetics, rather than the existence of a consistent inherent tone, which IMHO is a myth.

Brian Herder · Post by **Brian Herder** » 21 Mar 2009 6:53 am

Reece- What I said that I didn't like about the guitar was the lack of "feel", or resonance.... I didn't feel connected. I also said that every one I ever heard played by someone who chose that guitar sounded good to me. Of the several MSAs I had, one was black (not the one mentioned above). I played the black guitar that Dave ended up with (for a while), and that one was different, not sure why, but it was great. It sounded great, and didn't seem to have the lack of resonance I mentioned. I was just adding my personal opinions to the topic of why Emmons and Sho-Buds are priced higher in the used market... the weight is an issue for some, as it is with other brands, but that doesn't stop those that like a particular guitar form using it .. not always anyway. Also, I believe Dave was echoing my statement of "different strokes".

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 21 Mar 2009 7:12 am

I've always believed and still do that the steelman from years ago had an influence on the sale of particular guitars. Take for example, Big E during the 60's with Ray Price. How many classic licks and intros were done on a p/p? The sound of Jimmy Day playing Sho-Bud's. Hughey with the p/p's with Conway. I think another factor was promotional free guitars used as advertisement years ago. Go to a concern and see a particular player playing a certain brand and a lot of players want that sound. Turn on the TV to a music show and there's so and so playing this or that brand. Guitars are like a candy store for some players. Try everything and then they'll settle for what suits there particular taste at the time. I've had 75 to 100 different guitars over the years. Several different brands. Each guitar, regardless of brand is a little different. I've found MSA's that sounded great, as well as, Sho-Bud's, Emmons' and about everything else. Also found some of each that didn't cut it for me. My opinion here, it's the player sitting behind the guitar. We all look for a certain sound and each person hears differently.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 21 Mar 2009 9:28 am

I was indeed echoing Brian's "different strokes" comment.

I honestly don't think any statement of "better" or "worse" tone can be taken seriously. It all comes down to personal preferences. On E9 country, I personally think Buddy Emmons set a formidable tonal standard on his push-pulls. But on 6th tunings, players like Curly Chalker and Reece on MSAs also set an extraordinary tonal standard in that application. I don't know how much of it is the instrument and how much is the player - no doubt it's some of both - I don't think anybody has said there isn't any difference between the sound of different guitars.

Guitarists often take this to extremes, using let's say a Tele with light gauge strings for chicken pickin' country vs. a big-box archtop with much heavier flatwound strings for jazz guitar. Very different sounds and different approaches to playing, and each totally appropriate for their context. But I don't think there's anything like that amount of difference between modern-production pedal steel guitars to my ears - the differences are very, very subtle in comparison. My sense is that these differences can be largely overcome by a good player. If you diff them on top of each other, maybe one can hear some difference. But I think it's much harder when comparing them at different times, in a mix, in a room with the same player playing.

The biggest difference to me is how I feel about it when I'm playing different guitars - that goes for 6-string or steel. I also agree with Reece that visuals play a big part - when I show up on a gig with a cool looking vintage 6-string guitar, for example, my compatriots - many vintage guitar nuts that they are - always tell me how great it sounds, even if I think it sounds lousy. But if I bring something more modern, they look askance and figure out a way to find fault with it. With steels, these folks like an old flamey maple Sho Bud for the looks, but I doubt they would know if I was playing a black Emmons vs. a black MSA vs. a black Fessenden vs. a black Zum.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 21 Mar 2009 9:46 am

Brian……It’s a pleasure to discuss this topic with you and I thank you for your kind response to my comments.

Concerning the feel and resonance you mentioned in your last post, IMO I believe “feel” and “resonance” are also part of the overall aesthetic perception.

Although we ran no such experiments in this regard, it is my belief it’s not possible for anyone to place their hands on a guitar while blindfolded and identify a specific feel, benchmark for “feel”, or a specific guitar.

I also believe the resonance factor to be non-detectable in a non-visual evaluation concerning sound/tone, or consistent inherent characteristics relative to any specific brand of guitar.

Billy C…..very good post and I agree with you in that “each person hears differently”, and I will add to it by saying, “each person has a different visual perception” which equates to mental acceptance or rejection of specific guitars.

Dave M…..as usual, I appreciate your intuitive post.

Brian Herder · Post by **Brian Herder** » 21 Mar 2009 10:36 am

Dave's right on with his analogy of the Tele/Jazz box. I think that fits well. . Reece, do you really think that with a blindfold on, you couldn't tell the difference in the feel, feedback, resonance (how ever you'd want to describe it) of different guitars? The MSA guitars (that I owned) had a sort of feel like they had rubber bushings isolating the vibrations from the guitar (extreme exaggeration), sort of like a luxury car compared to a sports car, for lack of a better illustration. The MSA is a LuxoSteel.. big, heavy and smooth as silk, but not a lot of road feel. Some other guitars are stiff, mechanical feeling like sports cars where you can sense every vibration... I could drive a Caddy, but I drive a Miata.. it's a stiff, noisy, a little uncomfortable... but that's what I like.. and I don't have to slow down tho go around a corner.. blindfolded, I could tell the difference, and it would also be terribly dangerous... but, I digress.
There's nothing wrong with the old MSA, it is what it is.. there are plenty of die hard MSA fanatics to prove it.
I was just giving my reasons for not really liking the old MSA. I've been thinking about getting a small, light singleneck.. I pretty much don't like the look of GFI's but they are on my short list of guitars to check out.. also Williams, and I don't care much for the fretboards on those (understatement), and that's the part I'd be looking at the most! So, looks do play a big part, but it's not really the deciding factor on being a keeper.
Also, whoever made the point that if a popular player was getting a lot of high profile media time on an old MSA, the prices would indeed go up was onto something. It's still not the one for me- though I sure would like to try one of the new ones.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 22 Mar 2009 5:55 am

Brian H……Thank you for your comments and questions. It’s a pleasure to have the opportunity to discuss such an interesting subject.

Before responding to your question I believe I should define that which I believe we would each consider to be logical so as to make a determination of the visual and physiological implications of feel, feedback, resonance……and as you said........“however you want to describe it”.

To make a determination there should be at least three guitars present, yours of course would be one because it evidently has the feel, feedback and resonance or you would not be playing it, and then, like the comparison procedures MSA used, you would get the sound/tone you prefer on your guitar, then get a similar sound on the other guitars by adjusting the amplifier.

I believe you will agree, in the context to which we are discussing….. feel, feedback and resonance has nothing to do with the pedals and knee levers, only the guitar itself, therefore there is no reason to use them. As we know, the action of the pedals and knee levers, the sound of the activation of the pulling system, positioning of the pedals and knee levers would provide a distorted and/or an unfair insight.

In answer to your question…..I do “not” believe I could be blindfolded, place my hands on the guitar, and by simply feeling the strings and playing the guitar I could identify which guitar I was playing. Further I don’t believe the guitar you believe to have the feel, feedback and resonance would be consistently identified whether one be listening, or actually playing the guitar.

The “feel” of rubber bushings and isolating vibrations you described were without question valid “from your perspective”, but I believe we can agree, the next person who plays the guitar could have a totally different perspective.

I will go a step further by saying…… should that other person respect you and admire you as a player, and were you to share your personal observations about lack of feel, feedback and resonance relative to a specific guitar, there is a very good possibility they too will then begin “believing” they hear something which was non-existent before you provided the power of suggestion.

I believe perception to be unique to each of us, and those perceptions are gleaned over many years of personal experience unlike those of anyone else. These unique mental “triggers” compound over time and create personal perceptions, likes and dislikes. There is no question in my mind that the influence of the eyes can at times be the determining factor of the overall physiological perspective.

Thank you for your respectful comments and question. It's always a pleasure to discuss interesting subjects with those who are open minded and respectful.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 22 Mar 2009 4:58 pm

This might fall into the category of “fools rush in where angels fear to tread,” but here goes. I have, as mentioned before, 3 MSA guitars. One Dieboard and Mica Classic, one Maple-lacquer classic, and a Millennium. All 3 have the same copedant, and are set up as identically as possible.

But although I tried to set them up identically, there are still some differences in the way the two Classic models feel, and the Milly feels completely different. Being intimately familiar with each of the 3, I tell you unequivocally that if all 3 were set up in the same room, and I were blindfolded and set down behind them, I’d know which one I was playing just from feeling the pedals and knee levers, without ever touching a string.

More to the point of this thread, they SOUND different, and if I were blindfolded and somebody else was playing them, I’d know which one of them I was hearing. It would not matter whether or not the guitars were amplified or unplugged. The tonal differences are INHERENT in the guitar. Even my wife, who is not a musician, can hear the difference.

Now my familiarity with these specific guitars undoubtedly is a major factor in my being able to tell them apart. I don’t know if anybody else could do the same, but I believe they could. They are all wonderful guitars, but they all sound different from each other.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 22 Mar 2009 7:01 pm

Mike……. I congratulate you as being the first to come forward to say you can make consistent and inherent distinctions, if only between MSA guitars. Possibly next time I’m visiting Jim Palenscar’s beautiful steel guitar store in Oceanside we could each make comparison evaluations with other guitars as well.

You didn’t mention your evaluation parameters, however may I assume you made an effort to match the tone of all three guitars before beginning your experiment? Also please keep in mind, your use of pedals and knee levers when conducting your tests were not part of the comparison evaluations because of the reasons I explained in earlier posts within this thread.

As much as I would like to believe consistent, inherent, and identifiable characteristics has been achieved, I trust you will both understand and forgive my skepticism until I see it done.

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MSA vs Sho-Bud/Emmons

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