Fessenden Humidity issue (update with photos)

Shorty Rogers · Post by **Shorty Rogers** » 18 Mar 2009 9:24 am

Perhaps a metal strap from front to back apron, if applied when the aprons are not bowed, would help keep them straight. I would think a well sealed body would be less affected by humidity changes.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 18 Mar 2009 12:31 pm

Humidity can have a huge effect on the body and working mechanics of a steel. Remember, these are machines. They need to be lubed and maintenanced. Very rare that a steel guitar does not need some minor routine maintenance. I've heard stories of mica covered steels literally swelling out of their mica in summer heat and humidity.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 18 Mar 2009 1:32 pm

I have had this problem on most every steel I have owned at some point. The great thing about the Fessenden design are those brass bushings that can be easily adjusted to keep some slack in the cross bars. Some steels need to be taken apart to some extent or another to make this very simple adjustment.
I see quite a few Fessendens come through and I am more and more impressed by them.

Don Brown, Sr. · Post by **Don Brown, Sr.** » 18 Mar 2009 3:40 pm

Wow! This (to me) is really unreal. I've never before heard of this taking place. Maybe it's because we are usually always in the high humidity here, from being so close to the shore, etc?

I have nothing that controls humidity in our home, but as I said, this is a "First" time I've ever heard of humidity swelling to the extent of causing any malfunction.

However, now that I've got another steel, I'll keep this in mind, and see how it goes.

Knowing that different woods, do absorb moisture much more readily than other woods. My original steel is, 3/4" "Birds Eye Maple" lacquered outside of the cabinet, and left raw (natural) on all of the underside. It was never bothered by any extremes.

So this will be interesting to see if my new steel is bothered by humidity. I'll post if and when it happens. So far it's played flawless.

A real interesting find indeed.

Now! Do you suppose if the Cross Shafts were to be removed, and just a tad was cut off of each end, (in order to give them enough end clearance when that bowing takes place) that it would solve the problems from returning? Just a thought, unless the bowing was binding things elsewhere as well.

PS: I think that was a solid move for Jerry Fessenden to come online explaining as well. It Shows Integrity!

Don

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 18 Mar 2009 6:23 pm

that much bowing of the (back?) of that cabinet looks pretty excessive to me. i'd put a big ol' rod or something in there from the front to the back to prevent that kind of warping. actually makes me shy away from a fessenden which i always considered a great steel. is this normal, jerry?

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 18 Mar 2009 6:26 pm

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 18 Mar 2009 7:25 pm

Wood is wood and by nature it sucks in or expels moisture at will. What prevents wood from warping to an extent, is to make sure the wood is kiln dried down to 6% moisture and that all the cells are dead through proper kiln drying. This is an art in itself.

These days it is near to impossible to get hold of quality lumber that has been kiln dried and stored properly.

Another way to prevent changes in the wood is to paint the wood on all sides and ends as soon as possible after cutting and finishing. This prevents warping somewhat.
If wood wants to warp, it will do so, no matter how many cross braces, rods etc we bolt on to it.

The only way to make sure the cross shafts don't bind, is to cut them short and have enough play side to side.

Jim Park · Post by **Jim Park** » 18 Mar 2009 7:31 pm

Hey Chris,
How are you doin??? I think it's an optical illusion..... there is a little bowing but i'd like to see some measurements...My Fessy that I bought from Steve Benzian in Burlingame did the same thing. I had it here in Nevada about 3 months and I had to shim out the strip on the back of the guitar because of shaft binding as the wood dried out. We had some days of 6-8% humidity last summer and I havent had any more issues with the guitar other than MY lack of maintenance. I'd buy another one in a heartbeat

Don Brown, Sr. · Post by **Don Brown, Sr.** » 18 Mar 2009 7:45 pm

Chris, I don't think I'd shy away from, I think we can all possibly learn from this thread.

Jerry Stepped up to the plate, and acknowledged exactly what it was due to.

I'd say, it's not all of Jerry's that do that. It (possibly) only occurs once out of every so many. So, just possibly, the solution to that, "could be" to go to assembling, with the wood already expanded, by adding more humidity to the air, where the wood is stored. Then, when it expells the humidity, it wouldn't be bowing in any direction. While at the same time, when it breathed and expanded, it wouldn't bow, because it had been assembled after the wood had some expansion already, from spending time in a more humid environment.

That sorta makes sense to me, and could possibly be a solution. Also, maybe that happens to other brands as well, but folks haven't really looked into that aspect of it, to have found the problem?

Just some thoughts on it.... Don

Tommy Young · Post by **Tommy Young** » 18 Mar 2009 8:09 pm

SORRY GUY'S I'VE SEEN 2 OTHER BRANDS DO THE VERY SAME THING THAT THIS ONE IS DOING. They as builders do not control the drying that the wood gets and when some one at the mill gets behind and he don't care then something like this happens or some woods that are more dense than others it takes longer than normal to dry them completely is what I've been told.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 19 Mar 2009 10:09 am

hi jim...yeah, actually i've always considered fessendens as being one of the major brands...ok, i won't shy away now...

Stu Schulman · Post by **Stu Schulman** » 19 Mar 2009 10:32 am

I had that happen to a Blanton S-10 years ago.It gets very dry in Anchorage 7% humidity in the winter combined with my Ex's use of forced air heating caused two of the knee levers to lock up the wood cabinet had shrunk,I had to file off some of the cross shafts to free them.Most six strings that have been here for a while shrink at the edges of the fretboards and usually have to be filed otherwise you can cut yourself.I always humidify my house these days.

Brian Kurlychek · Post by **Brian Kurlychek** » 22 Mar 2009 7:54 am

Thanks for the comments. The guitar has now spent one week sealed inside the case at 58% humidity and there is no noticeable change in bowing.

From the range of responses, I am reading that some of you think this is a humidity issue, and others think it is a wood curing issue.

If this is a humidity issue - how long should I expect to keep the guitar inside the case before the wood bows back to normal?

If this is a wood curing issue - do I need to have the cross shafts altered to compensate for the defect?

Keep in mind I have a humidified home. I am not sure that the same rules apply in my case regarding extreme humidity changes, but I could be wrong.

A few of the bushings have been tapped all the way inside the wood and there is still no play in the cross shafts.

This is about all I can think of at this time.

Here is another photo showing the guitar after one week.

John Miller · Post by **John Miller** » 22 Mar 2009 9:00 am

If the mica side was more protected from the effects of drying, wouldn't the apron be bowing the other way? Humm .... If curing was not causing the bow, and wood shrinks when it dried (as opposed to swelling when damp) then perhaps compressive forces are causing the bow? Maybe the apron is the symptom and not the problem?

Regarding your question Brian, if humidity is the issue, I'd think that it would take several weeks for a board like that to come back.

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 22 Mar 2009 10:53 am

As per the humidifier in the case: my violinist / cello colleagues have told me that internal humidifiers (like the Damp-its most of use in acoustic guitars) are relatively ineffective, and that a room humidifier is necessary to really protect wood. Don't ask me why: just repeating what people with much more expensive instruments have told me. Of course they are only repeating what someone else has told them, so ...

Brian, I know you have a humidification system built into your house, but maybe it would be worth using a hygrometer to measure the humidity in the music room. It could also be affected by a space heater in colder months (I'm guessing)?

Okay: I'll stop now, since I really don't have any expertise in any of this.

Dan

Stu Schulman · Post by **Stu Schulman** » 22 Mar 2009 12:56 pm

Hey Brian,How far is Jerry's place from where you live?I would take the guitar to him if it's not too far to drive,Stu

Jerry Fessenden · Post by **Jerry Fessenden** » 22 Mar 2009 5:56 pm

For the 3rd time, I'll say this , 1. You can't put ANY finish on wood that will prevent moisture from either swelling , or shrinking... 2. No strap on the aprons can help on an all pull guitar... it helps on a P-P because the shafts are in the aprons nearly at the mid-point.That is closer to the bottom of the apron. 3. I have nearly every brand of steel here , and nearly all have been locked up at one time or another. 4. If you pry the shafts back from the front apron , then they will turn freely... many times someone will come in & tell me they can't get the shafts pryed out, you may have to loosen the screws on the rear strip, but if there is clearance, then they will be free. I can free the shafts in just a few minutes . 5. In damp locations the shafts tend to have too much clearance, so, remove the strip and tap the bushing inward... JF

Brian Kurlychek · Post by **Brian Kurlychek** » 23 Mar 2009 10:39 am

So my question then becomes: How much play is supposed to be in the cross shafts? 1/4 inch play? 1/2 inch play? 1/8th inch play? Or something different.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 23 Mar 2009 1:58 pm

Brian Kurlychek wrote:So my question then becomes: How much play is supposed to be in the cross shafts? 1/4 inch play? 1/2 inch play? 1/8th inch play? Or something different.

Obviously, the ones nearer the center of the cabinet will be affected more, but 1/8" play should be sufficient. Some guitar aprons swell inward and others swell outward, so there's no one-size fits all solution. Different manufacturers approached the problem differently. Emmons employed the front-to-back brace, while a lot of other manufacturers went to the wrap-around aluminum frame, with the wooden aprons being more cosmetic than structural. Still others just opened up all the clearances, hoping to avoid the problem. If you have this problem regularly with your axe and are unsure of the best method to correct it, then you should probably have a good tech see just where the problem lies, and then let him decide on the best course of action to correct it.

Also, keep in mind that a humidity level over 45% for extended periods is just too high. Levels above this may promote warping to wood, rust and corrosion to metal parts, and also mold and fungus growth. Brief exposures to high levels of humidity are okay, but more than a few days at levels over 45% really requires some sort of remediation, and it goes without saying that unheated basements, attics, and garages are not the place to store musical instruments or amplifiers.

Brian Kurlychek · Post by **Brian Kurlychek** » 23 Mar 2009 4:31 pm

Thanks Donny. I appreciate your input.

I have knocked those little brass bushings back inside the rear apron , so we shall see if that will do it.

I had to pound the back strip of metal with a hammer and pry it out with phillips. But I think I got the job done.

Next I will get some lube and lube everything. Hopefully that does the trick.

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 23 Mar 2009 6:00 pm

The first chance that you get, have someone to turn their Franklin PSG upside down and you'll see the solution, with no further questions asked! Paul Franklin avoided this potential problem years ago!

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 24 Mar 2009 2:26 pm

You're right John, there are other solutions! The guys at MSA used a carbon fiber body on their Millennium, which completely eliminates shrinkage, cracking, warping, and expansion due to temperature and humidity changes (all those problems that worry most other guitar owners).

Ward Skinner · Post by **Ward Skinner** » 25 Mar 2009 7:37 pm

I'd like to know what the Franklin solution is.

Brian Kurlychek · Post by **Brian Kurlychek** » 28 Mar 2009 8:58 am

I too would like to know what the franklin solution is. does anyone have any photos of a franklin they could post?

For now I seemed to have solved my problem by taking the metal strip completely off of the rear apron and tapping the bushings completely into the apron. .

I am still a bit confused as to how it would get this way. I know Jerry says that humidity at 40% will fix the issue, and I have had a hygrometer measuring my climate controlled environment and it reads 41% humidity.

So my solution for now is to keep the strip completely off the guitar. Not too happy about it but that is the best I can come up with at this point.

I hope the wood bends back at some point so I can put the strip back on.

Don Brown, Sr. · Post by **Don Brown, Sr.** » 28 Mar 2009 2:10 pm

Brian,

After much consideration, I've been thinking that just possibly, you're turning it into a scientific project, rather than a "SIMPLE" mechanical issue.

Bottom line would be to throw the Hygrometer into the trash can, and get to playing the steel.

#1. It's NOT a big issue to make clearance where needed, on anything. It only becomes an issue if a person starts checking out humidity, inserting meters and gauges, instead of doing what needs to be done. And that is: "Make the necessary side to side end clearance, for the Cross Shaft to WORK right.

#2. Bingo, problem solved. It doesn't take a brain surgeon. Simply find out the one/s that need more clearance, and do what you have to do, to give them the needed clearance.

You might even find that all the steel really needed to begin with, was a good cleaning and Lubrication.

Don

The Steel Guitar Forum

Fessenden Humidity issue (update with photos)

A real interesting thread..

Fessenden

humidity