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Topic: Ok felllows git out yer boxing gloves.... |
C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 17 Mar 2009 2:39 pm |
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I been ah hearun for now on 12 or more yeers "It's ALL in tha hands!"
Ok.........
Been doun a bit ah diggun n' ah searchun. And done come up wid sunthun!
I dun come up wid sum "evee dince" fer youns to ponder, chewum up and spit 'em out (not at me pleaz!  )
Now notice the follerin links (if you are from New York, ya have ta click yo mouse on it, kindly!)
What?
I ain gunna tell ya if you do not know what a "mouse" is neither or whuteither!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5Mx5lhreMY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Htmf8MkuHhE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFuYmuZpFiw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfYfQ24sdBQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXdPDrCXMdg
Now dem be 5 differnt steel gee tars! Now did you yhear me? Huh? I repeat?
Day be 5 of 'em!
Now ahm a tellun ya dat all dem 5 petal from a faded.. (oops) steel 'gee' tars do NOT sound da same.
YET, mindja!
dem be da same cotton-pickun hands.
Now if you say day all sound duh same, din, you are as deaf as an oithworm, dadgum it! Remember, I got me boxun gluvs on.
Now listen up and listun at me! Dadburn it. If'n after you watch deese 5 PS Geetars and listun to dah sound commun out of 'em, and IF'n ya steel (oops) still maintain day ALL sound da same, ahm qwinna punch you RAT betwixt and (between) yo NOSE!
Now whatcha gunna do about that pahdnah(s)? And dat goes for the jackass (oops) mule ya rode in on too! Daddrat it all anyway! 
But in any case, I do love ya all in spite of it all! EVEN (would you believe it) Donny! 
carl
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 17 Mar 2009 2:53 pm
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Mr. Dixon,
I do not propose, nor do I think anyone else has proposed, that all guitars sound the same. They don't. What I contend is, that any well constructed pedal steel such as MSA, or others, can and do have a very good sound. I also contend that there is no inherent tone in any brand that is consistently distinguishable, and able to be picked out in a blind test.
I also contend that no one brand of guitar has "the" tone.
_________________
You can observe a lot just by looking |
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Fred Shannon
From:
Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas, R.I.P.
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Posted 17 Mar 2009 2:57 pm
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Carl, is this in reference to the MSA tests done back in the 70's?
phred
_________________
There are only two defining forces that have offered to die for you; Jesus Christ and the American GI!!
Think about it!! |
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Nathan Sarver
From:
Washington State, USA
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Posted 17 Mar 2009 3:19 pm
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| My mouse bit me when I tried clicking him. |
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Tim Whitlock
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 17 Mar 2009 3:26 pm
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Carl, you're a hoot - I'm glad you came back!
I contend that you just have to really like the dang guitar for some reason or other (color, brand, so-and-so played it) and eventually you will make it sound good. The cornfusion seems to be the notion that you can buy good tone without the prerequisite effort to develop it. My jackass mule ain't gonna sound no better on one than th'othern. |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 17 Mar 2009 3:52 pm
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| Quote: |
| http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=1353589#1353589 |
I am not aware of an MSA test Fred.
But when I viewed those videos, I did have to chuckle at the number of times I recall on this forum, "It is ALL in the hands". Either said directly or inferred. I contend that is simply not true.
That first link where Buddy is playing a Sierra sounds much different than his SKH on the Ray Price show, for just one example. At least they do to my ears.
All in fun in any case. I meant and mean no offence. If a person believes that it is all in the hands, that is fine. I don't. Never have, never will. To each his own.
This I know. I personally saw Jimmy Day fret and fuss with a Remington PSG one night at the ISGC during a multi steel jam session. He continued to fight the sound, until he got up in the middle of the jam, left and brought back a Sho-Bud. It was obvious that he was pleased with the sound. And it was even more obvious that he was NOT pleased with the sound of the Remingtion that night.
Oh well.
Take care dear friend,
carl
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 17 Mar 2009 3:53 pm
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I don't disagree, but there are a lot of other variables in those videos besides the guitar. And the tone of the steel is excellent in all cases, IMHO.
I hear different tones in my own recordings over the years. It isn't just that I'm playing different guitars - my own tonal preferences change and I adjust my amp and effects accordingly.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Tom Quinn
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Posted 17 Mar 2009 3:55 pm
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They all sound different with the Emmons guitars the clear winner for tone in my book. No comparison...
And I play a Bud. |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 17 Mar 2009 4:14 pm
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Carl, I think you might be confusing what was, and is, actually meant by that statement.
The hands of a great player, definitely bring out the best in any instrument that player plays. It has absolutely nothing to do with why different guitars with the same player (or for that matter) the same guitar played by the same player may sound different on different takes. That sound is simply different settings used, etc.
Yet the player with great hands, will always, bring out the best tonal responses to his/her touch, that can be made on that particular instrument, regardless of what instrument he/she happens to be playing on. Nothing says they'll all sound the same.
I think that's the confusing issue with what you heard. I can play two different songs, and may want to change my amp settings slightly different for each song.. "I don't consider my hands being great" but my hearing is.. ........Don |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 17 Mar 2009 4:35 pm
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Don,
I assure you, there was (and is) no missunderstanding
But thanks for your comments dear friend.
c.
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A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 17 Mar 2009 5:11 pm
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*Style* is in the hands.
Over and over this debate has raged, and it's silly. It was roadkill on 6-string forums a decade ago.
those who hear a player play different guitars and say he sounds the same are mistaking "style" for "tone". Signature licks can overwhelm the perceptions of some listeners.
The hands CAN alter tone to a degree - attack, distance from the bridge, picks/no picks/gage of picks (if you want to call that a "hands" issue)...these all have an effect on tone.
If I am playing a Les Paul and need a Tele-like tone I use the bridge pickup and play close tot he bridge with a sharp attack and altered picking style - I can get a sort of a "Tele feel".
But I can't get a Tele tone. and neither can anyone else.
Bobbe mentions the subject again this week in his newsletter - and it's well-recognized the effect different tonewoods and such have on tone.
No one...ever...has proven - or even weakly demonstrated - that "tone is in the hands".
If players would learn to calmly discern the difference between style and tone the whole subject would just go away. But as long as egos enter into it and a small group of influential players insist hands are the crux of tone it'll never end.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Ernest Cawby
From:
Lake City, Florida, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 17 Mar 2009 5:43 pm ?????????? Sssss
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I do not know the answer but when Jack Conyer played my Professional he sounded a lot better than when I played it, he had a very good solid sound on it. It was not what he played but the over all sound he got out of my guitar.
ernie |
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Pat Comeau
From:
New Brunswick, Canada
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Posted 17 Mar 2009 7:13 pm
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Having played guitar for over 35 years professionaly i can tell you proper hand technics is what its all about no matter what instruments you play or even singing as a matter of fact, you can have the best singer and have him sing through a cheap microphone and it will sound decent but put an amateur and it'll sound horrible same goes with instruments, put any professional steel player on a top of the line pedal steel guitar and he will sound fantastic but but a beginner or someone that does not have the right technic and feel he will sound horrible, 
you got to have talent and the right technic and experience to be able to be call a professional, when you have all that and a good instrument it'a piece of cake,
as for different guitars sounds goes...YES they don't all sound the same some are better than others and i'll stand by those words any day  ,
so to refresh things...technic and feel first and a good instrument second. 
Pat
_________________
Comeau SD10 4x5, Comeau S10 3x5, Peavey Session 500,Fender Telecaster,Fender Stratocaster, Fender Precision,1978 Ovation Viper electric. Alvarez 4 strings Violin electric.
Click the links to listen to my Comeau's Pedal Steel Guitars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIYiaomZx3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2GhZTN_yXI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvDTw2zNriI |
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Danny James
From:
Summerfield Florida USA
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Posted 17 Mar 2009 8:09 pm
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Hi Carl old friend. I too agree it's great to see ya back.
To the statement "It's all in the hands". The way I see it is as a comparison to your own church. Who is the most important person there? Some will say the preacher, yet take away the custodian and how long will you hold a congregation?
Each member of a persons body from the brain inside ones head to the tips of ones fingers to even the shoes on ones feet contribute to the overall sound quality of the music being played on a steel guitar.
You bruise the tip of the index finger on the right hand, Have a bad cold and stopped up nose & hearing, wear a shoe that doesn't fit right, any one of these and the quality of music will suffer.
So I contend the player who is a proffessional and has it the most all together, mind and body and soul, along with a quality steel guitar is where it's at, as opposed to it being all in the hands.
It's a well put together combination of a lot of things.
I have heard it said,--- put strings on a 2X4 and Buddy will make it sound good.  |
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Pat Comeau
From:
New Brunswick, Canada
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Posted 17 Mar 2009 8:32 pm
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Danny said
| Code: |
| put strings on a 2X4 and Buddy will make it sound good. |
i wouldn't go that far
it goes like this...talent it's either you got it or you don't and it takes years of practice and playing to acheive professional level and Buddy,Paul,Loyd, John, Tommy and alot of other player has.
One can argue and argue but it all comes down to talent,technic, feels and years of playing.
_________________
Comeau SD10 4x5, Comeau S10 3x5, Peavey Session 500,Fender Telecaster,Fender Stratocaster, Fender Precision,1978 Ovation Viper electric. Alvarez 4 strings Violin electric.
Click the links to listen to my Comeau's Pedal Steel Guitars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIYiaomZx3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2GhZTN_yXI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvDTw2zNriI |
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Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
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Posted 17 Mar 2009 8:42 pm I don't know what it is
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I don't know if it is the hands or what, but the person I bought my MSA from sounds completely different and better than me. Of course, he grew up on a steel
_________________
"Oh what a tangled web we weave when we first begin to deceive" Someone Famous |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 17 Mar 2009 9:08 pm
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I have to wonder sometimes about what other people are hearing!
Sorry to speak ill of the dead, but many years ago I read a magazine article about, or maybe even by (I can't remember), Cesar Diaz, the amp "maestro". Although he, obviously, made his living on repairing, modifying, and designing equipment, he went into a spiel about how a player's "sound" was really in his hands. The example he chose was Eric Clapton--he made the assertion that when EC switched from Gibson guitars to a Fender Stratocaster, he still had "the same sound".
I never read anything more ridiculous in my life! Compare any recording EC made with Cream to his first, eponymous, solo album or Derek and the Dominoes. If his tone sounds the same, then a French horn sounds the same as an oboe! (Later, when he got his signature model Strat with the onboard mid-boost, he got back to a more similar sound to that of his Gibson era, but this article was before that.) |
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Colin Goss
From:
St.Brelade, Island of Jersey, Channel Islands, UK
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Posted 17 Mar 2009 11:29 pm In the hands
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| Jeff Newman had an LP out - Jeff and friends. He played five different makes of steel guitar. I can't tell them apart. |
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Tom Quinn
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Posted 18 Mar 2009 5:20 am
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| And? |
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Rick Winfield
From:
Pickin' beneath the Palmettos
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Posted 18 Mar 2009 6:21 am no EMMONS
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Zane Beck, Curly Chalker,Dave Hartley,Tom Brumley, Buddy Charleton, are among my favorites. I love their styles, and exceptional, though different, tonal qualities. None play an Emmons.
All have magic hands, and endless "variables" that make up their artistry.
but what do I know
rick |
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Rick Collins
From:
Claremont , CA USA
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Posted 18 Mar 2009 6:27 am
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Big E does not have the same quality tone playing the Sierra on "It's the Water" as he does on the other sample videos.
Could it be because he's wearing those darn suspenders with that red shirt?
...could be __ Jeff Newman didn't sound his best when he wore those darn suspenders. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 18 Mar 2009 6:56 am
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The best way to prove it IS all in the hands is to have a beginner play a passage on a given guitar/rig, and then immediatly follow that with a Pro playing the same or similar passage on the same guitar/rig.
The tonal difference will be quite clear. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 18 Mar 2009 7:42 am
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| b0b wrote: |
| I don't disagree, but there are a lot of other variables in those videos besides the guitar. And the tone of the steel is excellent in all cases, IMHO. |
I agree, nowhere does it say that Buddy was even trying to make those guitars sound the same.
Okay, let's go at this from a different angle...
Buddy recorded "Steel Guitar Jazz" on an old Sho~Bud. Therefore, from the tone-is-in-the-guitar camp's point of view, they would have to admit that Buddy's "tone" on this album would be exactly the same as Jimmy Day's or Buddy Charleton's when they played the same type of Sho~Bud.
Now, since you all are far better than me at posting clips and such, please find and post a few Jimmy Day and Buddy Charleton clips where you think the tone is the same as what Buddy Emmons had on "Steel Guitar Jazz".
There. That shouldn't be too hard, should it?
| Jim Sliff wrote: |
| If I am playing a Les Paul and need a Tele-like tone I use the bridge pickup and play close tot he bridge with a sharp attack and altered picking style - I can get a sort of a "Tele feel". But I can't get a Tele tone. and neither can anyone else. |
There's my ol' buddy Jim (once again), comparing a Les Paul to a Telecaster. Comparing an arch-topped semi-hollow body guitar to a slab-bodied one. 
Jim, can we at least get you to use the same type of guitar in your comparisons? 
Since you're the straight guitar guru, I take it you'd still have no trouble differentiating, on sound alone, guitars that have a little more in common. In other words, if I played a clip of a shredder, you'd be able to definitively say whether or not he was playing on a Gibson Explorer, a Dean Baby ML, or an Ibanez Destroyer?
Since (as you've said) every guitar has it's own unique tone, that would be a piece of cake, right?  |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 18 Mar 2009 10:46 am
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| There's my ol' buddy Jim (once again), comparing a Les Paul to a Telecaster. Comparing an arch-topped semi-hollow body guitar to a slab-bodied one. :lol: |
Really?? I thought he was comparing a Les Paul to a Telecaster!
I don't think I've seen anyone in any of the threads on this topic, whether "all in the hands" partisans or "different guitars sound different" partisans, Jim included, who didn't agree that pedal steels have a great deal of similarity to each other physically, by comparison with six-string electrics. Of course, this means that differences between PSGs are much less pronounced than differences between six-strings, but that doesn't mean they're not there. It's a matter of degree.
As David Doggett pointed out in another thread, Reece Anderson's famous "blindfold tests" at MSA proved, if anything, not that steel guitars didn't have differences in their sounds, but rather that the differences were at most not so great that they couldn't be evened out enough that listeners had a hard time distinguishing by changing amp settings, which is by Reece's account what they did.
So--Many here feel the conclusion from that is: the differences in sound between steels are inconsequential. That's a value judgement, not a fact. If others find them consequential, that's their business. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 18 Mar 2009 1:10 pm
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these clips prove my position...good players make their instruments sound great and make me wish i'd practice more!
i never cared for sierras but i love the way buddy makes it sound. old msa's used to sound like cardboard until i heard curly and reece put them through their paces.
good players make good music. there are lots of different tools to perform with. |
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