A question about Lloyd Green - JBL speaker

Mitch Ellis · Post by **Mitch Ellis** » 15 Mar 2009 4:47 pm

I was talking with Mr. Lloyd once and he told me that there was a certain number JBL speaker that he likes to use. Does anyone know the number. I can't remember.
Mitch

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 15 Mar 2009 6:38 pm

That would be the JBL D-130.
It's the alnico magnet 15" speaker that hasn't been made in close to 25 years.
Ricky

Mitch Ellis · Post by **Mitch Ellis** » 15 Mar 2009 8:25 pm

Ricky,
The speakers in the Fender twin that I have are D120F. Whats the difference between those and the D130's?
Mitch

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 15 Mar 2009 8:48 pm

D120F is 12"; D130F is 15".

I have a D130F basket/magnet with a trashed cone that a roadie I knew gave me in 1976. Can it be reconed with the proper materials today?

Olli Haavisto · Post by **Olli Haavisto** » 16 Mar 2009 2:09 am

Mitch,
On one of the most revered Lloyd Green performances, Charley Pride live at the Panther Hall , he used a rented Twin Reverb with a pair D120Fs.
I remember reading this somewhere, sometime....

Steve Hitsman · Post by **Steve Hitsman** » 16 Mar 2009 5:16 am

Brint,

Weber VST can recone that to original. Here's a link:

http://www.tedweber.com/

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 16 Mar 2009 6:07 am

This is what Lloyd uses now..

That's a fender black face Twin with a D-130(15" speaker) in separate cabs.
Ricky

Mitch Ellis · Post by **Mitch Ellis** » 16 Mar 2009 9:20 pm

Olli,
Thank you for that info. I like the way mine sounds, (Fender Twin) but it starts to break up when I increase the volume. I am also afraid that the low notes of the C6th, at a high volume, will bust the speakers. Thats why I use a NV400 instead of the twin. Is there an equivalent to the JBL D130 being made today?
Mitch

Olli Haavisto · Post by **Olli Haavisto** » 16 Mar 2009 11:23 pm

Mitch,
I don`t think the speakers are breaking up, unless they`re already blown or you play really loud. Try setting the amp volume fairly high, maybe 12 o clock and ease on the volume pedal. The front end of the twin can be overdriven pretty easy with hot PSG pups.
This might be old news to you but I realized this only after" years" of trying to get a clean sound out of a Vibrosonic, thinking that low preamp settings are the way to go.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 17 Mar 2009 5:19 am

Another difference between the D130's and the D130F's, is the 130F's have a larger voice coil, and can handle a little more power. The D130's are a smoother speaker, slightly.

Woody Woodel recones Lloyd's speakers to perfection.

Tim Whitlock · Post by **Tim Whitlock** » 17 Mar 2009 3:05 pm

I would stick with the D-120F's. They are great sounding speakers and will handle the Twin's power better than one D-130F. Plus the 4 ohm load is correct for the Twin, whereas the D-130F is rated at 8 - 16 ohms. You might try a lower value pre-amp tube and maybe re-bias to tame the break up. I don't think it's coming from your speakers.

If you are dead set on a D-130F (it worked for Lloyd!), email me. I have one that I would swap straight up for your two D-120's. It does sound sweet in a Twin!

Lee Costley · Post by **Lee Costley** » 18 Mar 2009 10:16 am

The F at the end of D120F, D130F or D140F was used to note a speaker that was sold to Fender for use in its amplifiers. They usually had a special Fender label & sometimes had a special orange paint job on the frame. The D120F & D130F were used with guitar amps & cabinets , the D140F was used with bass amps & cabinets. All sounded good with guitar too, if you like big clean sounds. They were also sold by JBL to other markets without the F suffix as the D120 D130 & D140. There is no difference between the Fender branded and the JBL branded speakers except the label & occasional spiffy paint.

Olli Haavisto · Post by **Olli Haavisto** » 18 Mar 2009 1:02 pm

This is what Harvey Gerst, JBL designer says :
"There was 2 ( 12" ) models. The D120, and the D120F. The D120 is the grey one. The D120F is orange and was the one Fender had made for them. The F model has a bigger voice coil gap to allow for slop in baffle flatness, but it takes an efficiency hit."

Lee Costley · Post by **Lee Costley** » 18 Mar 2009 1:05 pm

I do own a D140F

Lee Costley · Post by **Lee Costley** » 18 Mar 2009 1:13 pm

Here are Harvey's own words

The D stood for a metal dome and the A and B were for woofers of different
impedances. I don't remember if we made a 131A. We also made a D123 (full range
pancake 12" speaker) and the D208 and D216 (both 8" speakers but with 8 and 16
ohm voice coils).

Fender was buying D130s for use in their Dual Showman systems, but they were
experiencing problems in surrounds drying out from outdoor use, and burnouts
>from improper mounting techniques. I wrote a memo to the president of JBL,
outlining a plan to let me design a series of speakers made specifically for
musical use and he agreed. My plan called for modifications to the D130 and
D131, plus an all new bass 15" speaker, and a new 10" speaker.

Since Fender was our largest purchaser, I did not want the headache of trying to
re-introduce a whole new series so I kept the D130 name for the 15" and simply
added an F (yes, the "F" is for Fender - don't know why to this day I did that,
but I did). Since I was making up new model numbers, I decided where possible to
keep it simple, so the 12" (originally the D131) became the D120F, and the new
10" became the D110F.

That left the new bass speaker. I didn't want to leave it in the 13x range
because it was different and the 150 was already being used by our theater
woofer. The 140 was not being used, so I named the new bass speaker the D140F.

Richard Tipple · Post by **Richard Tipple** » 18 Mar 2009 2:02 pm

I was at a little country music store today & there was a JBL E130 15" hanging on the wall behind the counter. I couldnt see the back of the speaker, but the guy said it was an E130 I dont remember a E130.
Anybody know what these were used in.....or did the guy need some glasses......

T. C. Furlong · Post by **T. C. Furlong** » 18 Mar 2009 7:27 pm

E-130 came after the D series and K series. Here is how it worked:

D-130 15" alnico magnet - grey paint - tight voice coil gap - slightly warped voice coil would rub and burn out

D-130F 15" alinico magnet - grey paint- wider voice coil gap to allow slightly warped coils to not rub

K-130 15" same as D-130F - black paint

E-130 15" large heavy ceramic magnet - black paint - harsher sound (to my ear)

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 18 Mar 2009 7:34 pm

Richard Tipple wrote:I was at a little country music store today & there was a JBL E130 15" hanging on the wall behind the counter. I couldnt see the back of the speaker, but the guy said it was an E130 I dont remember a E130.
Anybody know what these were used in.....or did the guy need some glasses......

The E130 came after the K130, which came after the D130F. The E has the same cone as the K does. The E has a ceramic magnet and is capable of handling more power--up to 300watts, and the D's and K's have the older, more sweeter alnico magnet.

The ceramic magnets are more brittle/ice picky, and heavier. I've never owned the E130 or played one, but this is what I've read. More experience will probably chime in here and take the discussion further.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 18 Mar 2009 7:41 pm

TC was posting as I was.

I'd add this, The K130's differed from the D130 and D130F, in that the K has a cloth surround in the cone edge, and the D's were paper to the edge.

The same cone kit is used in the E130 as with the K130. The K handles more power than the D130f, about 100-125 watts vs. about 60-65 watts in the D130F. The D130 was about 25 watts rating.

Mitch Ellis · Post by **Mitch Ellis** » 18 Mar 2009 8:56 pm

Ollie,
I've already tried what you have suggested, and it don't help. concerning volume, I always play at an average level, or maybe lower. I don't think it's the speakers either, because there is no break-up when I use the amp with my tele. The p/u in my steel is a Jerry Wallace TrueTone wound at around 18k. There is one thing. Farily often, the amp will make a "crackeling" sound then it will go away. Maybe a few minutes latter, it will do it again. This is with and without an instrument plugged into it. And sometimes the reverb will not work, and I'll have to bump the reverb wire to make it work. But the "crackeling" thing is there, even with the reverb turned off.
Tim,
I couldn't trade the speakers, but thank you for offering to help. I LOVE the sound of the amp, but I just can't get enough volume before it starts distorting. At least with my steel. I would guess that the break-up is at around 30% of the amps volume.
About the speakers. They have the orange paint and a label that reads "Fender". but at the bottom of the label it reads "James B Lancing". I've heard the term "Fender speakers" or "JBL's" and "Lancing speakers". What are mine called? Or are they all the same thing? Why would it distort with the steel and not the tele? Thank you all for your help
Mitch

Lefty · Post by **Lefty** » 19 Mar 2009 2:03 am

Woody Woodell recones are great. Woody told me JBL has not made a recone kit worth having in 19 years.
He recones old style using epoxy glue that takes many days to complete. I am completely satisfied with the JBL D120's he has done for me. You might question whether he could rebuild that D-130 speaker to 4 Ohms. That would be a great setup. For me the D-130 is the way to go for Steel. Also having the twin biased and tubed correctly for clean performance makes a tremendous difference.
Lefty

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 19 Mar 2009 6:41 am

Mitch Ellis wrote: And sometimes the reverb will not work, and I'll have to bump the reverb wire to make it work. But the "crackeling" thing is there, even with the reverb turned off.
I would guess that the break-up is at around 30% of the amps volume.
About the speakers. They have the orange paint and a label that reads "Fender".
Mitch

Mitch, The crackling coming and going is caps going bad because of age--they are drying out, and it is normal for ANY tube amp that is over 20 years plus. The replacement of caps is normal maintenace. There is a small pan under your amp chassis with 4 screws. Under that pan will be your filter caps. I would replace them and see if the crackling goes away. If it(the crackling) is still there, then you will have to do more of a cap job inside the chassis. I would do the caps in the tone stack last if your problem does not clear up. If it persist, then go all the way on the cap job. Your amp can be voiced for clean headroom--just let your tech know that up front. You can get 90% volume before "breakup". You will want to replace tubes with tubes known for clean headroom, rather than early breakup. That would be 6L6 GC's. If you do all of this, you will virtually have a new amp "electronically", and it's good to go for another 20 years. The reverb cable is probably dirty, and a little cleaner will clean up the plug ends. Bend your plug "wings" in a little for a tighter fit.

The orange frames are JBL D120F's in the 12" speakers, and JBL D130F's in the 15" series. James B Lansing was one of the brothers in the beginning of JBL Speaker Manufacturing. One of brothers broke off and started JBL. It was originally Altec Lansing Speakers-then maybe I have this backwards. Hope that helps some.

Mitch Ellis · Post by **Mitch Ellis** » 19 Mar 2009 9:00 pm

Thank you, James. You have been a big help. Another question. Will the JBL speakers in a twin handle the low notes of the C6th neck at a high volume like the Peavey 15 inch Black Widow does. I'm thinking no. Am I right?
Mitch

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 20 Mar 2009 5:06 am

Mitch Ellis wrote:Thank you, James. You have been a big help. Another question. Will the JBL speakers in a twin handle the low notes of the C6th neck at a high volume like the Peavey 15 inch Black Widow does. I'm thinking no. Am I right?
Mitch

Mitch, I do not play 12's i play k 130's and they sound great on C6th. I would not hesitate to play through a pair of D120F's on C6th. They will have plenty of punch. The Black Widows are designed to play LOUD in a 200 watt solidstate amp. and not blow. Remember, BW's are designed to copy JBL's AND handle huge power requirements. The miss the mark, tonewise in copying the JBL, to my ear--they ain't a JBL.(flame away, BW fans!!LOL!)

You need to ask yourself--do I need to play that loud? A twin with a pair of 8 ohm JBL's will sound fantastic and do you just fine. If you need to get gawd awful loud, mike it through the mixer, and play your volume at 5-7 on that twin. If you play C6th and your volume is moderate, and yet your speakers start giving you some "breakup" on those low notes, back off. I can crank my K130's dang loud and have no problems. I'd play those 12's, Mitch.

John Hanusch · Post by **John Hanusch** » 20 Mar 2009 6:48 am

Mitch, you'd asked above:
"Is there an equivalent to the JBL D130 being made today?"
You might have already come across this on the WEBER website - anyway, check out their High Power Series, 15", 'California's'. They're offered in ceramic & alnico. Regards, John H.