Steel Guitar Appraisals

Ben Slaughter · Post by **Ben Slaughter** » 29 Dec 2003 10:38 am

I am appraiser, by trade, and I'm considering taking up the appraisal of pedal steel guitars under my current practice. I had a long dissertation prepared, but figured I'd first run the idea up the flag pole and see who salutes, before I spend too much time thinking about it. Appraisals could be used for insurance, buy/sell, financing, divorce settlements, personal curiosity, etc. I beleive this may be a worth while service to the PSG community.

Questions, comments?

------------------
Ben
Zum D10, NV400, POD, G&L Guitars, etc, etc.

Larry Robbins · Post by **Larry Robbins** » 29 Dec 2003 1:36 pm

Hi Ben,
Is this something that could be done by someone E-mailing pics to you,or would you have to phisically see the steel?Sorry for the dumb question,(I bet Im not the only one wondering)Besides I never minded makeing an a$$ out of self.(just ask my friends).Thanks.

------------------
Sho-Bud ProII
"there's been an awful murder, down on music row!"

Ben Slaughter · Post by **Ben Slaughter** » 29 Dec 2003 2:34 pm

Not a dumb question by a long shot. I have considered this. It wouldn't be cost effective for me to go traveling all around looking at guitars, I could, but you wouldn't like my fee. Nor would it be feasible to ship guitars back and forth. So, yes, I could do it with a detailed description and photos. I've appraised real estate with less, believe it or not.

I would probably have to require chemical (normal) photos just to try and prevent fraud. "Photoshoping" pictures is pretty easy.

An appraiser is not legally required to look at the property s/he is appraising, and I believe it is that way specifically for cases such as this. The standard to which appraisers must adhere to the Uniform Standards of Professional Appraisal Practice (USPAP). On the web at https://www.appraisalfoundation.org/htm ... 03/toc.htm

------------------
Ben
Zum D10, NV400, POD, G&L Guitars, etc, etc.

Randy Pettit · Post by **Randy Pettit** » 29 Dec 2003 3:13 pm

Ben:
That sounds like a cool idea. I wish I'd thought of it. I'm a real estate appraiser, too (duh!). I think if you set a minimum standard of required information (photos, detailed description, ownership, etc...), you could potentially provide a valuable service. If you decide to go for it, put out an APB on the Forum for comparable sales data. I'd be willing to contribute.
Randy

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 29 Dec 2003 3:16 pm

Hmmmm... Maybe you could describe for us how you might envision it working a bit more. A few questions keep popping up in my mind:

Firstly, I and many others, I'm sure, use the Forum Buy & Sell section as a kind of market-value appraiser. It's a database that shows asking and often actual selling prices of loads of guitars with various pedal and KL combos in various conditions, usually with photos. If you follow that reasonably closely, you can soon get within + or - a few hundred bucks of what you ought to be paying on a used S10 or D10. So, I think your challenge, Ben, is how you would improve on that level of accuracy and what your client would actually DO with your valuation.

Scenario 1: Seller is asking $1800 for his used D10. Prospective customer asks Seller to send photos to Ben and pays Ben a fee of $X. Ben looks them over and tells client his valuation of the instrument is $1675. Prospective customer passes this info. on to Seller and offers $1675. Maybe Seller accepts offer; maybe not. If accepted, deal will cost Buyer $1675 + $X for the appraisal. Let's say fee is $50, so Buyer is in for $1725. Only a $75 savings from the asking price! I think most Sellers would have come down that much anyway if they'd gotten an offer that close to asking price. So this scenario doesn't really work.

Scenario 2:

Seller wants to list his steel for sale but instead of picking a price and trying it in the market, he wants to have it appraised first so that potential Buyers have confidence in his listing price. So he pays Ben $X and gets his steel valuated and adds the $X to the valuation when setting the listing price to cover his extra cost. He advertises the guitar as having been professionally appraised by Ben. Potential Buyer may make full-price offer, or lower offer, and may not care for the idea that he'd be paying for the Seller's appraisal fee, which must be buried in the selling price. Will having the "appraised value" known by prospective buyers lead to higher offers? I think it's unlikely for this market of steel guitars, but if it is true in this market then I think it's probably only true on average and most Sellers don't turn over enough guitars to play the averages.

So... I guess where I keep coming out is that the only place that I could see an Appraisal making a difference is in Rare and Unique instruments for which you don't have a good alternative way to judge market value. You know, that "mint Bigsby" that used to belong to so-and-so, etc. There are few "comparables" to look up. Is it worth $6K or $26K? Alas, even here, it's worth whatever the market will bear. Go ahead and ask $26K and if someone wants it that badly, they'll buy it for that. Or they'll make a lower offer which might be accepted.

Ben, I know this has been long and I apologize if it's sounded pedantic; I'm just trying to think this out loud as I type it. Perhaps you (or others) can share some of your own detailed thinking about how this could work, because at least so far, I can't really fathom it.

But if you want to offer a really useful service to steel sellers and buyers, how about opening up an ESCROW SERVICE? One of those owned and operated by one of our own number might be very popular...

Good luck whatever you decide to do,
Jimbeaux

[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 29 December 2003 at 03:19 PM.]

Ben Slaughter · Post by **Ben Slaughter** » 29 Dec 2003 4:01 pm

Good ideas Randy, I've had similar thoughts. I working up a list of things I'd want to know about.

Jimbeaux, also excellent things to consider. I completely agree with you that it would not make much sence to pay me (or anyone) to come up with an asking or offer price when one could search the Buy & Sell pages and get within 5%, for free. In fact, in real estate appraisal, I rarely appraise a property for this purpose. I was thinking along the lines of scenarios in which a transaction was not involved, such as insurance. Also thought about financing, don't know how many folks get loans for guitars, but I know some guitars can be very expensive. But, that would depend on the lenders. Everyone has a pretty good idea of what their stuff is worth, it's the proof that harder to provide, and that's where the appraisal comes in.

The vintage and collector thing is a whole other ball of wax. I'll leave that to Gruhn.

An escrow service, hmmmm... That could be some difficult logistics. Would be better if I was back home in KC,MO, or somewhere more centrally located.

Like I said, I'm just trying to gage demand, floating a trial baloon. I have plenty of things to keep me occupied so this isn't a make or break idea. Keep the comments comming.

------------------
Ben
Zum D10, NV400, POD, G&L Guitars, etc, etc.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 29 Dec 2003 10:20 pm

Ben, I agree with you and Jim that a third party appraiser wont get used much in sales between musicians. But an appraiser might be useful for collecting insurance on damaged or stolen guitars. It could also be useful for establishing values in divorce and other legal disputes. Finally, an appraiser might be invaluable to a widow who ends up with her deceased spouse's collection and wants to sell it on the Forum or on E-Bay.

I think for the escrow business, you could be located anywhere in the country. I'm not sure what Jim had in mind, but the need I see is for someone reliable (possibly bonded) to collect the money from buyers and forward it to sellers when the item arrives at the buyer's. Even on the Forum, it's a little nervous making for a buyer to send several thousand dollars cash and hope the item arrives, and is as advertised.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 30 Dec 2003 4:58 am

Yup, that's what I had in mind.

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 30 Dec 2003 6:12 am

Ben,
With all due respect, I don't see any commercial valididty in any of this. Even though you are an appraiser of real estate by trade, you have no established track record as a pedal steel guitar expert. (Correct me if I'm wrong) I think the concept of appraising an instrument for resale value was valid before ebay and the internet, but I can tell you in a matter of minutes what the going value is for anything musical. Perhaps this would be useful for insurance purposes but I don't see this tight fisted crew here going for it.

I see zero need for any type of escrow service here as the number of fraudulent sellers here is virtually nil...

Now of course this is just my appraisal of the situation

I may be all wet here, but this is the way I see it.

------------------
God Bless,
Steve Stallings

www.pedalsteeler.com

Sam White · Post by **Sam White** » 30 Dec 2003 6:54 am

Ben
I have a question or two. first we have not heard what your per centage is. And to be arrnest with you I don't think there is a need for an appraiser. I think the way we do it is fine. if you sell a item you get your money and make sure the check clears your bank and then you send the Item.I just sold two Steel Guitars that i built and I'm just waiting for the second one to arrive at the persons home .I will be sending my donation of 2.5% to the Steel guitar forum. Now I don't have to pay for an appraiser so I or the buyer saves your per Centage.I do feel we have a great bunch of Arrnest people on this Steel Guitar Forum and we are all family.
Sam White
IF IT SOUNDS GOOD PLAY IT PRETTY[This message was edited by Samuel E. White on 30 December 2003 at 06:57 AM.]

Ben Slaughter · Post by **Ben Slaughter** » 30 Dec 2003 1:43 pm

Appraisers rarely participate in deciding a sale price, in fact I've never done an appraisal for this purpose. I was/am thinking along the lines of what David has said:

"But an appraiser might be useful for collecting insurance on damaged or stolen guitars. It could also be useful for establishing values in divorce and other legal disputes. Finally, an appraiser might be invaluable to a widow who ends up with her deceased spouse's collection..."

An appraiser would not have to be an "expert" on steel guitars, but would have to have a good understanding, and GOOD information. Good data is the key!

No percentage fees. Never pay an appraiser a percentage of value as a fee. Gruhn charges $35, so I probably couldn't charge much more than that.

I believe, to operate an escrow service properly the escrow service would have to have BOTH items of value (guitar and check), and then distribute them.

------------------
Ben
Zum D10, NV400, POD, G&L Guitars, etc, etc.

Alvin Sydnor · Post by **Alvin Sydnor** » 30 Dec 2003 2:42 pm

Ben:
I think you have a good idea. My main interest is getting an aappraisal for insurance purposes. I believe that you as a member of the American Society of Appraisers (ASA) has more credibility in providing "insurable value" especially when dealing with an insurance company.
Keep us informed on your decision and keep on pikin
Alvin

Ken Lang · Post by **Ken Lang** » 30 Dec 2003 6:20 pm

Don't mean to be a stickler here, and many of us make keyboard errors with an out of control finger, or don't proof read what we have just written.

................................................Jimbeaux, also excellent things to consider. I completely agree with you that it would not make much sence to pay me
................................................

If you can't spell the word sense, what else might be wrong in a proffesional presentation?

Just a word to the wise.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 30 Dec 2003 7:45 pm

I think an appraiser would be of value...if we're talking high-end "collector" steels, and not "player steels". Common "player steels" are sold daily through the Forum "Buy and Sell", and on ebay. As with anything, the market determines the price, and where the market trade is big, determining price is easy. The purchasers of once-in-a-lifetime collectables, however, may benefit from an "uninvolved expert".

Your biggest hurdle would be establishing credibility. That would be hard unless you were associated with a well-reputed dealer, or an expert rebuilder.

Ben Slaughter · Post by **Ben Slaughter** » 31 Dec 2003 1:08 pm

Ken, I will only say that on an average day I probably type between 5,000 and 10,000 words, and the connection between my brain and my fingers doesn't always work flawlessly. I pay people to edit my reports. But, I suppose I will start running my posts through a spell check, in an attempt to avoid having my professional ethics judged.

On another note, I've decided not to pursue this any further. I've come to the conclusions that, a; it's not going to be close to being worth my time, financially, and b; I don't want to ruin my experience with the steel guitar by making it a job.

Thanks to all who responded with constructive criticism. I floated an idea, and ya'll gave me things to think about, and that's exactly what I wanted. Thanks. Anyone who whould like to take the idea and run with it, I won't be offended.

------------------
Ben
Zum D10, NV400, POD, G&L Guitars, etc, etc.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 31 Dec 2003 1:25 pm

"I don't want to ruin my experience with the steel guitar by making it a job."

Words to live by!!!
It took me 10 years of 5 nights a week, 5 sets a night, to come to this conclusion!

Gary Preston · Post by **Gary Preston** » 31 Dec 2003 2:45 pm

I have never bought a used steel and quite frankly i am afraid of doing as such . Is there anything wrong with that ? No not by any means . But to buy a steel sight unseen sounds a little scary to me . What someone else thinks is a real deal may not suit me even if it was appraised by someone . We all have an idea of what is good and whats not . It is like a ''street rod'' ( hot rod )it's not what it is worth but what someone is willing to pay for it . Someone may have said this already . But this is just my openion and it only matters to me . I'll buy mine by myself thanks . Gary.

Bobby Snell · Post by **Bobby Snell** » 31 Dec 2003 3:25 pm

Ben, you would be doing a service to the steel community by keeping this idea going to a limited extent for insurance and other business reasons. Your credentials as an appraiser would be a big plus. However, the small size of this community would mean that not much in the way of financial renumeration could be expected! Good luck in your endeavors.

P.S. "ruin my experience...making it a job" That's a great reason for not doing it!

P.P.S. for Ken: you missppellled professional !:^)

Bob Carlson · Post by **Bob Carlson** » 31 Dec 2003 3:45 pm

A Pawn Shop might already have a Blue Book that includes steel guitars.

It's been a few years since i've looked for bargains, but you don't get any steals (pun intended) there anymore. They seem to have a real good idea of what stuff is worth.

Bob