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Topic: Amp Settings - Bedroom/Practice Room vs Bandstand |
Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 17 Feb 2009 10:59 am |
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Generally speaking, how do your amp's tone control settings change, when moving from a small practice room/bedroom out to the bandstand?
Do you need to boost/cut certain frequencies on the bandstand, due to the fact that you are now competing with other instruments?
Do you feel that the changes are necessary because your amp sounds different at higher volumes?
Of course, a large venue is going to have different acoustics than a small practice room. What do you do to adjust for that? Boost the highs, mids, or lows? Cut certain freqencies?
More reverb?
More cowbell?
Lee, from South Texas |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 17 Feb 2009 4:18 pm
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| My tone controls don't change at all. Just the Pre and Post gain. Nashville 400. |
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Len Amaral
From:
Rehoboth,MA 02769
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Posted 17 Feb 2009 4:41 pm
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| Hi Lee, I find that I use a bit more bass and reverb when I play in the house and no delay. Playing at stage level I roll the bass off and add the mids a bit and the sound seems to project better, IMO..... |
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Ivan Funk
From:
Hamburg Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 17 Feb 2009 6:39 pm
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Same as Len I notice I cut a bit of low and boost a bit of mids end when playing louder with a band.
I've heard sound engineers sometimes refer to a situation as a living organism. I know - I bit far fetched. I guess their point is that even in the same room with the same band and roughly the same amount of people in the room, the sound can be totally different from one night to the next. I've found that using my ears and dialing in the sound becomes easier and quicker over time until I don't really think about it.
What concerns me is that the volume on the Virasonic that I use is set on "2" at home but when I get back from a gig I notice it's on 7 or 8. That's just too loud. I have no idea of the difference in tone balance at that volume level out of the context of playing with the band because I would never turn it up that loud at home.
I guess as with colors, sounds only have meaning in context of their relation to other sounds. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 17 Feb 2009 9:02 pm
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The perceived loudness frequency response of human hearing, in response to program material played at constant loudness, changes with nominal sound pressure level. This was observed by Harvey Fletcher and Wilden Munson in the early 30s, and they did the first experiments to estimate equal-loudness contours at various nominal sound pressure levels (the nominal level was measured at 1 KHz). Those curves were, and often are still, called Fletcher-Munson curves. Those experiments were repeated in the 50s by Robinson and Dadson to give a more refined estimate. These experiments have been repeated many times since then, and now there is an ISO standard for this.
I don't worry too much about the exact equal-loudness contours anyway. They are somewhat different for different people, and the exact experimental setup will cause it to vary somewhat. Room acoustics also affect this. Wikipedia gives a reasonably good explanation of this, has some useful links, and there is lots more if you look - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour
This simple chart with the original Fletcher-Munson and Robinson-Dadson graphs gives a pretty good idea what's going on - http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Fletcher-MunsonIsNotRobinson-Dadson.pdf
This paper is the basis of the current ISO standard - http://www.nedo.go.jp/itd/grant-e/report/00pdf/is-01e.pdf
I have generally found bass frequencies to be less exaggerated in comparison to the nominal frequency (1 KHz) at higher volumes, and higher midrange frequencies often strike me as less scooped at higher volumes, all other things being equal. But all other things are not equal. For example, room acoustics comes into play. Often, there are low and low-midrange room resonances that exaggerate those frequencies. Another thing is that the speaker frequency response and ability to handle especially bass frequencies without mushing out can affect this. Sometimes when an amp is pushed, the bass response gets reduced. It can be very complex.
The upshot, for me, is that I usually need to pull the midrange frequencies down a bit when playing louder, but the bass and higher frequencies are a crapshoot. The room and amp make so much difference that I can't make any generalizations.
To me, the only solution is to really listen. For a clean PA that's adequate for a room, an equalizer with a mic calibrated to a pink-noise generator (similar to white noise, but the power spectral density is proportional to 1/f where f is the frequency) can be used to flatten out the frequency response in the room. That can get rid of some of the obvious problems. But even when I've done that, I still make adjustments by ear so that I think it sounds good.
Acoustics can be very complex. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 17 Feb 2009 10:18 pm
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I generally add more bass and cut the treble a little when playing alone at home. This gives a fuller and more mellow tone that sounds good solo. You're playing all the parts, and in fact on my S12U I will play more harmony on the lower strings.
Playing live with a band, too much bass just makes it sound muddy, and harmony on the low strings is drowned out by the bass and drums. Also, you need a little more treble to cut through the mix. And in a group you are not playing all the parts, but mostly playing lead and fills, which works better on the high strings. So with a group, I both set the EQ brighter, and also play more on the high strings. The exception is in rock and blues, where I play some rhythm (mostly power chords) on the uni low strings. But even that sounds better with a little brighter EQ to give the low strings more definition, which is the same reason bass amps have horns, or use bright 10" speakers.
But that's all for dealing with a single instrument played solo versus in a group. I believe what Dave M. is referring to is the loudness curve that applies to full range systems such as home stereos or PA systems. On those, the ear is most sensitive to the mid frequencies (the range of human speech), so at low volumes you need to boost the lows and highs to keep them from dropping out, and as the volume increases, the lows and highs can be brought up until the EQ is flat. At extremely high volumes, the highs are what become painful first. So you need to roll them off. We can take a lot of bass with no pain. So you can boost bass and increase the apparent loudness of the whole mix with less worry about the pain threshold. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 18 Feb 2009 7:11 pm
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Actually, the equal-loudness contour frequency response was measured by sweeping a single-frequency tone across the spectrum. From wikipedia:
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| Equal-loudness contours were first measured by Fletcher and Munson using headphones (1933). In their study, listeners were presented with pure tones at various frequencies and over 10 dB increments in stimulus intensity. For each frequency and intensity, the listener was also presented with a reference tone at 1000 Hz. The reference tone was adjusted until it was perceived to be of the same loudness as the test tone. Loudness, being a psychological quantity, is difficult to measure, so Fletcher and Munson averaged their results over many test subjects to derive reasonable averages. The lowest equal-loudness contour represents the quietest audible tone and is also known as the absolute threshold of hearing. The highest contour is the threshold of pain. |
My point was that there are a lot of competing effects besides psychoacoustics - like the room acoustics - which makes it hard to make generalizations.
The other aspect is what mixes well when playing with other people. One thing I know for sure is that nobody I work with will tolerate much bass from the pedal steel. But that sometimes has nothing to do with what I think sounds right tonally.  |
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Whip Lashaway
From:
Monterey, Tenn, USA
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Posted 19 Feb 2009 9:52 pm
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In the words of the late Jeff Newman, something to the effect.....To properly adjust your amp settings go outside, have the neighbor start mowing the lawn, wait for lots of traffic to drive by, lots of kids playing and making noise, horns blaring, engines revving...Now adjust your amp for what sounds right to you. That is closer to the real world setting than your living room. I heard him say it and it's on one of his instructional tapes.
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Whip Lashaway
Sierra E9/B6 12 string
Sierra E9/B6 14 string
Excel S12 8x9 blue
Excel S12 8x9 black |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 19 Feb 2009 11:09 pm
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I rarely adjust my amp at all. I find a setting that works and stick with it. In my experience adjusting tone for a room is a waste of time. Once you focus your mids (which is primarily done with your picking anyway) and make sure your highs don't hurt anybody you are good to go.
I am in agreement with the Daves. In most musical contexts a bunch of lows coming out of a pedalsteel just muddies things up. Those lows rarely make it 10 feet from the bandstand anyway.
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Bob |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 23 Feb 2009 8:38 pm
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Generally speaking, how do your amp's tone control settings change, when moving from a small practice room/bedroom out to the bandstand?
They change completely, because I don't use the same amp at home. Home is a Deluxe Reverb, Champ. '55 Deluxe...even a 1/2 ZVex Nano. On stage is a Vibroverb, ProReverb and/or Holland Little Jimi tube amp. I can't even drive the speakers decently on q 40-watt tube amp at home - and thr tone suffers.
On a gig my settings change significantly from setting to setting - hard walls vs curtains, ceiling shape and materials, glass doors, flooring (especially important), volume level, other instruments in the mix - and most important, playing on the floor or a raised stage - all have a large affect on tone settings. Not just on the amp, but on my guitars (My Fenders have controls - on my GFI I have a Steeldriver II which gives me a volume/tone circuit, essential to decent tone IMO.
General rules - as your volume goes up you crank back the bass; on a raised stage you HAVE to crank back the treble or you'll "icepick" someone close to the stage; and mids depend totally on the mix - with a good soundman ans mic'd amps, a lot of mids can give you great punch; with a lousy sound man or no micing (de[ending on the other instruments used) heavy mids can make you disappear in the mix.
When it comes to tone, one size DOES NOT fit all. I've played with guys for years who rarely change their controls except for volume, and they'll sound great in one room and absolutely horrible in another - and never notice it themselves, because they are used to listening to *their* tone...not the entire mix.
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No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 23 Feb 2009 10:32 pm
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| I take mine off the "Wife and Neighbors" setting and switch it to the "Dim Lights, Thick Smoke, and Loose Women" setting. |
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Greg Wisecup
From:
Troy, Ohio
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Posted 24 Feb 2009 2:28 pm
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Pre gain up. Master volume up. Sounds just like home 'cept louder!
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Derby SD-10 4&5 Black!(duh)/
Derby D-10/Steelers Choice/
Goodrich 120/ 2- Katana Boss 100's
/Nashville 400
RV-3/ Zoom MS-50G
As long as I'm down in the mix I'm Fantastic! |
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