MSA vs Sho-Bud/Emmons

[Reece Anderson]

Bill Ford.....Sorry I accidentally overlooked your post.

I don't know if the Finnish plyboard we used was similiar to that which you're referring too. All I know is, Finnish plyboard was VERY strong, very smooth and machined beautifully.

Thank you for the question.

[Mike Christensen]

I believe Randle Currie who plays for Brad Paisley plays an MSA. Not a thing wrong with HIS sound and I would believe that judging by the speed he plays some of Brads songs the MSA must work very very well indeed. Happy Trails

[Tracy Sheehan]

I Played a D 10 SS MSA on the road for close to 30 years.Yes it had a dark tone,but was what i wanted as i was not into the Nashville sound.Liked swing,pop,etc.
When i retired and moved back to Ft Worth (i had played fiddle on the old Cow Town hoe down back in 57)I took a week end job with a country band.They did not care for my dark tone so i took the MSA over to Norris in Misquite where Bud Carter worked at the time and had him install George L pickups.Had a brighter sound which i did not like.
I went through several brands and was always sorry for selling the MSa.I went back to fiddle which i seldon play out as music has died.
If a steel is ever better constructed then the old MSA's i want to see it.I also never liked reverb.When i chopped off a chord on the C 6th neck i didn't want it coming back at me through a reverb.
This was what i liked and these of course are only my own opinions.
Tracy

[Tom Quinn]

I'm listening to the boys on Smokey Mountain Knives Show on the cable teevee and reading Mr. Tracy's post and I'm glad to be an American. At's all I can say...

[Al Marcus]

I have had several MSA guitars over the years. I had some early Plywood D12's formica, black of course. Never had any mechanical problems with any of them. I will admit those early Models were heavy in the case,Built good, but 40 + years ago, it was not a big problem to me. I did like the sound of the later wood lacquer Micro models with the alum. pocket for the super-sustain II pickups. I had several of them too, D12's,S12's,Universals,D10's, S10's, I can't remember how many, but I know that I always liked them and found them easy to change tunings, etc.

Reece, is a fine Musician, a great person, and a good friend.....al.:)

[Mike Perlowin]

As most of you know, I have 3 MSAs. A millennium, and 2 older ones, One is maple with a lacquer finish and one is plywood and mica.

This song uses both.

http://www.perlowinmusic.com/Track14.mp3

The song is a quintet between various characters in the movie. It begins with the Jets singing, Then the Sharks, than the characters of Tony, Maria, and Anita all sing in a series of solos, duets, trios, till everybody is singing together. (Of all the songs on the CD, this one most closely represents the film and the action on the screen that takes place while the characters are singing.)

I used different sounds to represent the different characters.

The Maple/lacquer steel is on the left, the plywood/Mica one is on the right. They do sound different, but the difference is subtle.

Check it out.

[Reece Anderson]

Mike.....Thank you for posting the sound clip and identifying the guitars used. I however maintain the opinion one could slightly adjust tone and EQ of the guitars and no one could consistently identify which was being played.

I further maintain the same to be true when comparing other guitars as well, provided the listener cannot see the guitars being compared.

If someone maintains their brand of guitar has a better or different sound than another brand, that indicates they are convinced their specific brand has a consistently identifiable characteristic. Yet I have never known of, or seen anyone who could consistently identify even their own guitar when they couldn't see their guitar being compared to another.

[Bill Simmons]

For the past 2 Friday nights I borrowed my buddies older D-10 Classic, red lacquer,with the old Super Sustain pickups. Well, this old MSA has grown on me so that after I play this Friday night I'm steeling it!! (Sorry Bryan Knox!)

Over the years (in the 70's) I've owned about 5 different MSA's. My favorite was a D-10 Classic in 'Jamican Brown' (I believe that is what is was called) with the built in fuss/distortion unit etc. Yes, it naturally had a darker tone but it was built to last a lifetime, the wood bodies were incredible, and by adjusting the amp etc, I got a very nice tone. Wish I could buy it back...

My ultimate favorite MSA of the older steels is
the "SS" model...great steels and yes one day when I have more $$'s, I will find the right MSA SS model to buy...great steels!

[Mike Perlowin]

I however maintain the opinion one could slightly adjust tone and EQ of the guitars and no one could consistently identify which was being played.

Reece, I don't disagree in general. The 2 different guitars I used on the recoding do sound slightly different different from each other, but only slightly. For the purpose of making this recording, it would have better of the difference between them wase more pronounced.

[Tom Quinn]

I'm going to post something a bit controversial here, but I don't mean to start anything or disparage anyone.

In the early 70s there was a gentleman for California who wrote about pedal steels in various guitar magazines and sold products related to the steel world. He was on a real mission to stamp out "cabinet drop" and what he considered poor craftsmanship.

This person really pushed MSA hard at the expense of some hard words about Sho-Bud and Emmons. At that time there was a big push for Country Rock and the Jerry Garcia promotion of the steel. Pedal steels were showing up everywhere. The old Guitar Center on Van Ness had a dozen steels, evenly divided between Sho-Buds and MSA guitars.

Well the Buds were beautiful, but I'm sorry to say those early MSAs were "plain" to put it kindly. The Bud had card symbols and flamed maple and the MSA had chessmen and white plastic trim.

Bottom line is for many people like myself who only new about Telecasters, we went for the proven guitar from Nashville and sorta got tired of the California gentleman running down ever guitar but MSA.

I think that really hurt the brand in the long run -- and especially that dark brown formica. The later SS guitars were really beautiful, played great and sounded good too, especially with a pickup-ectomy.

But I think the damage to the brand had been done, and MSA has never really recovered from those early grindings out of California.

YMMV and I sincerely wish the best to any and all! :- )

[Donny Hinson]

Just an observation...

You couldn't get much plainer than the average natural finish Telecaster, and the spruce top of most flat-tops has all the appeal of an old school desk.

[Tom Quinn]

Yer kidding right? An aged spruce top on a D-18 or 28 with cross graining is beautiful. An old Tele with the ash grain showing through and a golden brown maple neck is pure modern art.

Back then we weren't comparing a Tele with an MSA -- we were looking at a flamed-maple Sho-Bud in see-through red lacquer. Emmons weren't anywhere to be seen on the West Coast unless you were a pro player.

No way an MSA could hang with a Bud in the "shazam" factor...

[Kevin Hatton]

Tom, you nailed it.

[Tom Quinn]

Thanks K!

[Bill Duncan]

It seems I'm seeing a consensus that the MSA's have had a great structural and mechanical heritage. I think what many folks think about the sound of the vintage MSA's, has more to do with the pick-ups that came in them, and not some supposed deficiency in body construction that caused a fatal lack of tone.

[Kevin Hatton]

No, actually plywood guitars just don't sound good, and that is reflected in the used market. I think thats what people are saying. If you happen to be a manufacturer that made plywood guitars then they are going to be worth considerably less on the used market than other classic guitars that actually sound good. Pickups only relect the sound of a good or bad sounding guitar.

[Fred Shannon]

Pure economics. More of those types of guitars built, and there probably is no argument there, then there will be more of that type on the market. It's called supply and demand. However, as Herb Steiner pointed out earlier, these guitars are getting harder and harder to find.

Better made and more choice pickups, contrary to some folks subjective opinions, allow a different configuration of each and every guitar on the market.

Finally, this will be an ongoing discussion until just right before the battle of Armageddon if you believe in it. How many Dekleys have you seen for sale lately?

phred

[Mike Perlowin]

Keven (and everybody else) I direct your attention to the link to the MP3 that I posted earlier. To reiterate, my maple/lacquer guitar is on the left channel, my plywood/mica guitar is on the right. There IS a difference in the way they sound, but it's not as pronounced as one might think, and not as much as I had wanted when I did the recording.

[Reece Anderson]

Tom Q…..Thank you for your comments and kind demeanor. I trust you will accept my response in the same positive spirit.

I of course know the gentleman you’re referring to in California. Most will agree, there’s a fine line between “sincere enthusiasm”, and being considered “over the top”. It therefore becomes that of a personal opinion with little or no supportive evidence to the fact.

I can honestly say, you’re the only person that has ever provided such an opinion, and I have to wonder how and where the gentlemen in California made such statements which you are convinced had the capacity to impact MSA’s California market at that time?

We named the dark brown formica “rosewood”, and I can verify through MSA sales records that the rosewood color you didn’t personally like, was the second most preferred color of all formica guitars MSA ever produced.

I must respectfully and verifiably disagree with your statement…..“MSA never fully recovered from those early grindings out of California”. To the contrary, MSA records will also verify that California was/is one of the top 4 states for MSA sales overall, since our earliest beginnings.

Thank you for your enlightening comments.

Kevin H…..You stated…”plywood guitars just don’t sound good, and that is related to the used market”. This comment should first be addressed with two questions for you…..1) are you really saying the Finnish plyboard has sound characteristics you can consistently identify when compared with a hardwood guitar? And 2) Do you know of a way that anyone who is buying an older MSA can visually identify any guitar cabinet as being Finnish plyboard or hardwood? Were there to be no visual way of identifying what the cabinet is made of, how can that impact the price of the guitar?

You of course could go back to your original statement that there is a difference in the sound between Finnish plyboard and hardwood, and “that’s the only way” to tell the difference. If you are convinced you can consistently identify the difference between the two, dinners on me and I’ll also leave the tip.

[Mike Perlowin]

I can verify through MSA sales records that the rosewood color (Tom Q) didn’t personally like, was the second most preferred color of all formica guitars MSA ever produced.

I have to say that on a purely emotional level, I like looks of both the black mica with white trim and white mice with black trim, but the rosewood mica leaves me cold.

I have no need of a 4th steel, but I wouldn't mind having a black mica to go along with my white one. I think they would make a very nice set.

I believe that back in the 70s and early 80s, MSA made the best steels in the world, AND THEY STILL DO TODAY.

[Tommy Shown]

From 1980 to 1998 I had a Sho- Bud. From 1998 to now I have an Emmons, what I am saying is I could never get the tone out of the Sho-Bud, that I could with the Emmons and the sound quality out of the Emmons beat the Sho-Bud. It's like the someone said one time about the color of the guitar having to do with the sound of it. An individual said that black guitars made a better sound than any other. IMHO that person who made that statement was either drunk,or taking cheap drugs. I have heard other steelers picking guitars in different colors that sounded really great. Lloyd Green playing that green Sho-Bud for years, Buddy Emmons I have seen him on shows playing, the rosewood laminate , black mica, and other brands. Still sounding the same. The Sho-Bud I owned was black with aluminum necks, when I bought it, the fact of a black guitar sounding better than any other color never crossed my mind.
The same holds true to my Emmons P/P. It's what Reese is talking about. The way we play it makes us all unique.

[Tommy Shown]

From 1980 to 1998 I had a Sho- Bud. From 1998 to now I have an Emmons, what I am saying is I could never get the tone out of the Sho-Bud, that I could with the Emmons and the sound quality out of the Emmons beat the Sho-Bud. It's like the someone said one time about the color of the guitar having to do with the sound of it. An individual said that black guitars made a better sound than any other. IMHO that person who made that statement was either drunk,or taking cheap drugs. I have heard other steelers picking guitars in different colors that sounded really great. Lloyd Green playing that green Sho-Bud for years, Buddy Emmons I have seen him on shows playing, the rosewood laminate , black mica, and other brands. Still sounding the same. The Sho-Bud I owned was black with aluminum necks, when I bought it, the fact of a black guitar sounding better than any other color never crossed my mind.
The same holds true to my Emmons P/P. It's what Reese is talking about. The way we play it makes us all unique.

[Bill Duncan]

The, "Rosewood", mica is my favorite cabinet color. I have a real, Brazilian rosewood board that I plan to use to build a new cabinet for my guitar someday. Not because I think it will improve the tone, just because I like the idea of a, "real", Brazilian rosewood body. That will have to be a stunning guitar. There is something about rosewood, it exudes a richness that few woods can match.

Come to think of it, that's kinda like MSA, huh?

[Tom Quinn]

Reese, again, I meant no flames, just one man's opinion. And I am only offering anecdotal evidence from days long gone. This is how I remember the scuttlebutt at the old Jeff Newman get-togthers and whenever steel players managed to be in the same room in those days.

I was trying to explain why old Professionals go for -- say 1700 dollars and up and sell quickly, push-pulls go for three grand and up and MSA guitars of a similar vintage rarely fetch more than $1,200.

You of course have the perfect right to disagree, and if you have watched my posts you might note that I always say the old SS guitars are screamin' deals.

Reese, I see that you do not accept private e-mails, so I will add this:

"Thank you for your enlightening comments."

I assume in the above you are not being sarcastic or that this is a put down and will take it as such.

[Herb Steiner]

Tommy
The "black guitars sound best" thing has always been a "tongue in cheek" statement, a luagh-getter, and never to be taken seriously. Colors do create emotional responses in people, influencing preferences, but colors don't create sounds.

Of course, if any of y'all DO feel that black guitars sound best, I've got a black Multi-Kord for sale here that I'll put up against ANY Sho~Bud, Emmons, MSA, or what-have-you. 3 grand, and WORTH IT!!