Moving on......

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 10 Feb 2009 9:11 am

I think that the time has come to change the mechanism(s) on the PSG to "computerized" control = pedals and levers as presently employed, but no rods and changer etc.

Pedals and levers could have the same feel as now, but adjustable for feel.

Don't sweat the pitch shift delay issue as a simple solution exists via the control process employed.

Some basic research has been done, and it appears feasable to accomplish the project in a year of so, and for an acceptable sum. The result would be either PC control, or a stand alone device/box/small...maybe both.

Any Forum folk interested in playing the game?

Jim Saunders · Post by **Jim Saunders** » 10 Feb 2009 11:11 am

Oh no! I haven't been able to give my car a tune-up since they computerized everything. No more points and plugs like before. And, how much should we be saving for this "acceptable sum". However, what you are describing is probably inevitable.

Ray Harrison · Post by **Ray Harrison** » 10 Feb 2009 11:32 am

Ed, being from the electonics world, I've thought for a long time that this was a feasible thing to do.
Are you directly involved in this project?
Ray

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 10 Feb 2009 11:42 am

I would be very interested, if the "control process" senses and controls string tension, rather than position of a changer.

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 10 Feb 2009 12:56 pm

A bit more explanation:

I don't do merchandising...I have made a living solving problems in the systems world = engineering physics.

I am retired (got that JC?) and have time on my hands as you insinuated. I like these PSG/music related problems (kinda like doing crosswords).

My present PSG "dashboard" is a software rack that uses the VST, and other effects for live real time as well as recording, and after recording functions.

The basis of the VST stuff is a thing called DSP = Digital Signal Processing. One of the DSP functions is pitch shift...presently applied to all strings at once.

If the pitch shift is combined with individual string type pickups, and shift control signals from pedals and levers, we have some interesting possibilities re eliminating/reducing the PSG hardware.

Jim...we could add some spark plugs. It has been my observation that PSG folk spend about as much time tuning as playing. I can't put a figure on what the final unit would cost yet.

Ray...yes, just me at the moment.

Earnest...The basic instrument would be tuned (sans pedals and levers) as usual; ano changes in tension needed to get the semitone changes = electronic pitch shift...similar to changing keys and keeping positions on keyboards.

My weakness at the moment is in DSP software. 1st is to define the various functions. 2nd is to decide the better approaches to the problem (external box, or all in PC (not likely) approach. 3rd is if external, then which DSP chip(s).

Any DSP programming wizards out there?

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 10 Feb 2009 1:12 pm

Ed, I'd better put my money where my mouth is and say, yes, I'd be interested in your project, maybe as a beta tester? But I have two drawbacks: (a) I have more mouth than money; and (b) I'm a mechanical dunce so I may not be your best option. Still, if you're looking for moral support, you can find it here.

Go for it!

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 11 Feb 2009 7:28 am

Jim the JAZZ man...No $ involved here...just interest and discussion. I had the BEAST built as the foundation of this activity. So far the computerized (software) dashboard has been added, as has the wireless from computer to Amp...might change this to Zigbee later. Can't find the LCD screen for the fretboard as yet, so will attack the pitch shift area next.

Ulric...the changer is a mechanical work of art. If you like mechanisms, search the forum for the BEAST and you will be routed to a Photobucket site with photos of the beast and the mechanisms of 33 other PSGs complete with Frequency Spectrum Analyzer traces of their response (sustain etc.).

That EMMONS cat was/is on top of what can happen. Two folk that I wish that I was next door to early in life are Les Paul and Buddy Emmons as they were both visionaries and experimenters.

MR.E (BOSS), you are invited to mess around in this if so inclined.

The modern day wizard of PSG and TECH is Joe Wright = PSG instruction on the web, and computer/camera mad...atta boy Joe.

I see that Excel is using the string retension trick I used on the BEAST. I hear that Noel Ansted may incorporate the keyless approach from the BEAST, with his improvements.

The pedals and levers will be the first concern. The largest number of changes that I know of is 10 pedals and 8 levers; lets round that up to 20 changes.

The most common S10 E9 has 3 pedals and 4 levers...lets round that up to 10 changes. Looks like one block of 10 changes will service the S10, and 2 blocks will service the biggies.

A single string and single pedal breadboard will allow the feasibility proofing and ringing out some unthought of details.

The pedalbar stays, the rods go. We need to generate DC control voltages as a function of pedal/lever usage. Pressure sensors seem like the most likely candidate. These are big these days in robotics, and in tire pressure sensors. Try a Google search and you will come up with semiconductor companies that make them. Each change should be able to cause a 3 or more semitone change in pitch, up and down.

So the first step seems to be not to difficult. If the change (pedal/lever) control voltages can be generated, the next step will be scaling between control voltages and halftones.

MathCAD, which I have, has mathematical algorithms for DSP purposes...can't wait to mess up my mind with these. With a little luck I won't have to...to be seen.

Thoughts solicited.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 11 Feb 2009 7:35 am

AT's what I'matalkinabout!

Richard Chapman · Post by **Richard Chapman** » 11 Feb 2009 7:45 am

Ok, I'll play along. This is interesting.

I have to ask, why have strings at all? Why not velocity / touch sensors like a keyboard and some type of sensor to determine where the bar is and then generate the tones? They could then be controlled for bend by the pedals based on the amount of movement with no mechanical linkage.

Opinions?

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 11 Feb 2009 9:23 am

I think it might be interesting, but highly impractical and complex. Many players have trouble programming a VCR, and others have similar problems with digital effects systems, wanting this preset and that temperment, and not being able to troubleshoot things when they go wrong. Of course, some players have problems with simple mechanical devices too, but at least they're robust enough to take a static discharge, and you don't have to worry about constant voltage fluctuations and bad connections. What you're doing is exchanging a few dozen (easily reproduced) mechanical parts for potentially hundreds of electrical and electro-mechanical parts which would be far more unique and expensive, let alone fragile. Who would service such a device? How would you keep the requisite spare parts in production to support the thing 10 or 20 years down the road? (Remember that Peavey Nashville 2000 that ceased production in a just a few years due to the inavailability of a few microcircuits?) What manufacturer would invest possible millions to make a few hundred thousand?

Of course, there are those recurring "tuning problems" that you mention with our instrument, but I feel most of those are due to the players, not their instruments.

I'd be all for it, Ed, if I thought the idea had an iota of possibility. But I think it's chances of success (in the immediate future) are about zero.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 11 Feb 2009 9:47 am

i believe this is possible......first with strings...then inevitably without...so you may be thinking pedal steel, but actually playing computer!
i think it's very far out, amazing, possible, probable....and really too bad!

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 11 Feb 2009 10:46 am

Me thinks that the ultimate is gonna behave like a theremin.

I'm reluctant to deviate away from the current mechanics, because of my bad experience with a sphygmomanometer (blood pressure gage).

The old mercury column units are as "direct reading" as you can get, but they are being phased out in preference for electronic and spring based units. The mechanical and electronic units are all referred to or calibrated in millimeters of mercury, but they are "inferential" in that their reading "infers" a unit of measure that they don't directly read or read out in. They must be calibrated to a mercury column as the base standard.

This cost me a $100 bill when the nurse at the doctors office said my blood pressure was all screwed up and that I'd better get to the emergency room. Went there and found it the nurse was all wet.

It wasn't me, it was that da&%^$% electronic gage at the doctor's office that hadn't been calibrated.

You don't need to calibrate a mercury column, it is what it is...

Direct reading, direct acting, simplest and hard to beat.

Just my $0.02.

Dennis Saydak · Post by **Dennis Saydak** » 11 Feb 2009 11:51 am

Good grief! have you no respect for tradition? We all lament the old country music vs new country. Now were talking computerized mechanics. What's next??? guitars that play themselves? We already have pianos that do that.

Actually, with the new "instant gratification" generation perhaps computerization will ultimately be the saviour for our beloved instrument

Doug Rolfe · Post by **Doug Rolfe** » 11 Feb 2009 3:02 pm

Hi Ed:

I've thought for years that the steel would lend itself to going the electronics route. It could incorporate multiple changes based on the program that was use in the controller. One steel with many tunings.

Gary Cosden · Post by **Gary Cosden** » 11 Feb 2009 3:38 pm

Hi Ed
This idea has been around for a while. I discussed this with Winnie Winston circa 1975 and he told me
that Sneaky Pete had a similar notion. The question I have always had concerns the pickup. How do you build a pickup that works on one string only and not the adjacent strings? Is there a way to work around this? By the way, I'm fer it.

Tom Quinn · Post by **Tom Quinn** » 11 Feb 2009 4:16 pm

Miss-segeneratin' a computer with a pedal steel is against the law in Georgia, South Carolina and three counties in Alabama. You best quit while you're still ahead with thos Wife-eye things what you use to play golf on the teevee...

Barry Blackwood · Post by **Barry Blackwood** » 11 Feb 2009 4:19 pm

Cool concept, however do I recall that the pitch of a string changed mechanically vs. electronically is two radically different sounding animals? If it destroys the tone, (timbre?) IMO it won't sell.

Pat Comeau · Post by **Pat Comeau** » 11 Feb 2009 4:53 pm

I'm very familiar with VST and DSP and also midi programming,
i have a Roland midi pickup install in one of my guitar, the concept is reallizable but the one problem i see is the pickup,
if it were to be a midi form concept i'm pretty sure it would be easy to do...
but if you're going to use the real sound of the pedal steel guitar body reasonance and pickup that's another story,
what i'm thinking that would possibly work is to make an electronic and mecanical device Changer...
so that only the changer would be electronicaly control by sensors on pedals and levers that way it would eliminate almost all the undercarriage and that way you still have the resonance of the cabinet and pickup.

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 11 Feb 2009 5:25 pm

Pat Comeau wrote: what i'm thinking that would possibly work is to make an electronic and mecanical device Changer...
so that only the changer would be electronicaly control by sensors on pedals and levers that way it would eliminate almost all the undercarriage and that way you still have the resonance of the cabinet and pickup.

Pat, I am under the impression that this is what Ed and the others are talking about

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 11 Feb 2009 5:34 pm

Maybe we shouldn't fix what isn't broke. Like the violin. I won't no part of computers in playing my pedal steel. Some people would just like to push a button and have their guitar in tune instantly. I like my classic pedal steel just the way it is. Fender "moved on" once and destroyed their amplifier line. Same with plastic steel guitars.

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 11 Feb 2009 5:55 pm

Count me in- anytime

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 11 Feb 2009 6:03 pm

I hear that Henry Ford was really satisfied with the cars his company used to make. Couldn't understand why anyone would ever want to "improve" them...

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 11 Feb 2009 7:19 pm

Ed-Sounds interesting to me. I have always been for getting more chord combination and tunings, somehow electrically. Carl Dixon has been working on Sensors to get 4 knee levers do the work of 8, etc. Some very good ideas.

Your "Beast" per the charts you sent to me, is very interesting. Looks like a great project. Maybe it will all happen a few years ahead down the road. ...al.

:)

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 12 Feb 2009 12:07 am

Wow... This will be very interesting indeed. If anyone can pull this off, it's our Ed!

The Steel Guitar Forum

Moving on......

Moving on......

Computerized Changers!

Ed Packard

the pedals and levers