Billy Joel takes Flak

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 26 Jan 2009 4:59 pm

This is funny.......

http://www.slate.com/id/2209526/

Richard Sevigny · Post by **Richard Sevigny** » 26 Jan 2009 5:46 pm

For the record, I like Billy Joel.

I feel that article was a sanctimonious defense of the writer's opinion. He doesn't like BJ. Fine. But the rest of the piece doesn't actually offer evidence of Joel's awfulness, just more of his opinion.

He's preaching to the choir just like the guys who who say only the old music (pick a style, any style) is good and the new music sucks.

He's got an opinion. But he's doing a terrible job of swaying mine

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 26 Jan 2009 6:14 pm

I think the writer did a good job of explaining what HE doesn't like about Billy Joel's music, and yes it's mostly his opinion of what he believes he hears in BJ's lyrics... I don't see anything wrong with that. What he doesn't like about the music, probably just as many people like. It's all subjective... it's okay with me to hear an opinion.

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 26 Jan 2009 7:14 pm

Billy Joel I can take or leave. I just like to read something by someone who has a way with words - the writer could be crucifying any number of self-absorbed artists and it would be just as amusing.

Mitch Drumm · Post by **Mitch Drumm** » 26 Jan 2009 9:21 pm

I have never heard a Billy Joel song from beginning to end, but thought it was funny as well--I always like to read a well-written spleen-venting.

Even better is the same author's attempt to explain Long Island and Long Islanders, a link to which is given in the Joel article.

Here it is, ten pages from 1993. Rosenbaum invokes Rosie O'Donnell, Thomas Pynchon, Joey Buttafuoco, Andy Kaufman, and demolition derbies in an attempt to come up with a unified theory that explains Long Islander behavior--with little success.

http://tinyurl.com/cuq7kp

Guy Cundell · Post by **Guy Cundell** » 26 Jan 2009 11:52 pm

Very funny, Michael...... "a dire threat to the peacefulness of any given elevator ride", "his loathsomely insipid simulacrum of rock"... but I found myself starting to get defensive about Billy although I don't particularly care for his stuff. I think the hipster's vitriolic attack was not in proportion to the basically harmlessness of the music. It's all pop to me.

When the insipid stuff is forgotten I reckon that "Just the way you are" will survive. A great tune and also for the unbelievable (first take?) Phil Woods solo. One of the most sublime moments of pop if you ask me.

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 27 Jan 2009 5:48 am

I lived out, in real life, the storyline in "Scenes from an Italian Restaurant"...

"Brenda and Eddy were the popular steady from the summer of 75..."

That tune will always have a special place in my life.

Barry Blackwood · Post by **Barry Blackwood** » 27 Jan 2009 7:35 am

Rosalinda's Eyes is one of my faves ....

Leslie Ehrlich · Post by **Leslie Ehrlich** » 27 Jan 2009 9:42 am

I feel nauseated every time I think of Billy Joel's music. Every hit I heard sounded hokey, especially 'Movin Out'. Ack ack ack ack.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 27 Jan 2009 12:44 pm

Leslie, that song should be permanently banned from the airwaves...

Carl Morris · Post by **Carl Morris** » 27 Jan 2009 12:50 pm

I think there are music people and there are lyrics people. The guys who think Joel sucks and Springsteen rules are lyrics people, IMO. Same tradeoff happened in the early 90s between the hair bands and the grunge bands.

I'm a music person. I'll take well crafted, well played melodies, rhythms, and chord structures over clever lyrics every day of the week.

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 27 Jan 2009 1:02 pm

My feelings are little bit of what some of you guys have said. At a gut level I don't like him and I do equate him with musical mediocrity. But I don't regard him as representing the same kind of evil as some of the other black holes out there--the Yannis, KennyGs, John Teshs, Enyas, Andre Rieus.....
And yes, BillyJ has written a few strong songs and my respect for good songwriting is such that writing even one good one is a heroic feat.
This level of invective should be saved for where it is really needed.

About Long Island---the local Craigslist musician's pages have been destroyed by arguing idiots, all from....Long Island. There seems to be an intelligence sink that drains any and all redeeming brain power from the musicians there and replaces it with whatever brain cavity filling it takes to make cover band, hair band and whiny blues jam players.
Ah, the land of Joey Buttafuoco.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 27 Jan 2009 3:58 pm

Rosenbaum's a journalist. What does he know about music? Billy Joel has been pretty eclectic and inconsistent, but he is a good musician and writer, and some of his music will be remembered long after Rosenbaum's cheap journalese has been forgotten. At least Joel has had three #1 records. How many #1 anythings has Rosenbaum had?

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 27 Jan 2009 4:17 pm

Sour grapes from someone whose opinion means nothing and could never stand up to Billy Joels record. His opinion might as well be written on toilet paper. Billy Joel is a monster award winning talent, Pop, and otherwise. Monster singer, songwriter, and musician. This comes from a guy who grew up two towns away from him at the same time on Long Island. Me. Joel is one for the history books.

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 27 Jan 2009 4:59 pm

Pop culture icon Chuck Klosterman has written some good stuff about Billy Joel as well, but does not actively pounce on him artistically, like Rosenbaum. Here is one of Chuck's:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A9649C8B63

Klosterman does his best to analyze Joel and the reason for his fame. In fact, Klosterman also makes a great case for Springsteen putting out a lot of bad lyrics as well. If Meatloaf sang some of Bruce's lines, the critics would have been showing their teeth. Springsteen is somehow untouchable, while Joel is always open game. I don't buy it. Here is an excerpt from Klosterman which I think nails this notion:

The reasons for that critical disdain are hard to pin down. There are no lyrics from ''The Stranger'' as ridiculously melodramatic as the worst lines from ''Born to Run'' (''Just wrap your legs round these velvet rims/And strap your hands across my engines''), nor was Joel's public posture any less organic or more calculated than that of the Sex Pistols. But guys like Bruce Springsteen and Johnny Rotten have a default credibility that Joel will never be granted, and it's not just because he took piano lessons. The problem is that Joel never seemed cool, even among the people who like him. He's not cool in the conventional sense (like James Dean) or in the self-destructive sense (like Keith Richards), nor is he cool in the kitschy, campy, ''he's so uncool he's cool'' way (like Neil Diamond). He has no intrinsic coolness, and he has no extrinsic coolness. If cool were a color, it would be black -- and Joel would be kind of a burnt orange. The bottom line is that it's never cool to look like you're trying . . . and Joel tries really, really hard.

While I do prefer Springsteen over Joel, I think Bruce has just as many embarrassing moments on record. The Born in the USA album, while a massive hit, was an artistic low, in my humble opinion. I'd rather listen to Joel's The Stranger any day. Those big sounds coming from the old Columbia studios.....and good tunes. Way more class than "I'm going down down down down".

Henry Nagle · Post by **Henry Nagle** » 27 Jan 2009 5:22 pm

Not that this thread is all about Springsteen here but.... I actually think most of the songs on Born In The USA are great. It's the recording that sounds dated. Gated snares and keyboards etc....

Billy Joel? I don't hate him. Sometimes I even like him. He does have a handful of really good songs. There's something in the attitude of his voice that is snotty sounding, or at least not fun sounding. He comes off as cynical and arrogant sometimes, whereas Springsteen, to me anyways, sounds humble and inclusive.

They really don't have too much in common that I can think of... ? East Coast? Dark hair?

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 27 Jan 2009 5:25 pm

Somehow the thread has come around to comparing Joel and Springtsteen, and in my opinion, if you take the two at the height of their powers, and compare their best work - it's unfathomable to me that anyone would ever consider Joel of being worthy of consideration for comparison to the Boss. It strikes me as absurd.

And just about lyrics? Albums like "Born To Run" and "Darkness On The Edge of Town." The musical content, the feel...classics!

I will give Billy Joel some credit however, for landing hot looking women!

Henry Nagle · Post by **Henry Nagle** » 28 Jan 2009 12:07 am

Yes, Mark. We must consider what is important here!

Mark Durante · Post by **Mark Durante** » 28 Jan 2009 3:39 am

They both suck but people eat it up and ask for more.
(IMHO)

Brian Kurlychek · Post by **Brian Kurlychek** » 28 Jan 2009 8:06 am

I am not a fan of Joel now, but I was in the 80's during uptown girl, Allentown, etc.

I remember seeing him in concert, and he can play the hell out of a piano.

The style of music he plays can be arguable, but he is definitely a great musician.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 28 Jan 2009 4:55 pm

Mark Eaton wrote:Somehow the thread has come around to comparing Joel and Springtsteen, and in my opinion, if you take the two at the height of their powers, and compare their best work - it's unfathomable to me that anyone would ever consider Joel of being worthy of consideration for comparison to the Boss. It strikes me as absurd.

I find just the opposite true. How can you compare the rock "sameness" of Springsteen" to Joel's work? I mean, Joel's done some pretty eclectic "out of the box" stuff, and he's a great musician. So he's got an attitude? So what? I don't want to sleep with the guy, I just like to hear his music.

(I don't "idolize" these big stars, so I can probably be more objective than someone who does.)

Springsteen, well, yeah. He's very popular and consistent, very likeable and "down homey" (especially with the E-Street gang). But I don't think of his music as really individual or unique. Ho-hum, half the time I can't tell his stuff from John Cougar Mellencamp's. Sure, he's had decades of popularity and lots of Top-10's. But strangely enough, he hasn't had a single #1 hit.

Hey, I don't idolize either one of them; like whomever you want. But if you're going to try and put BS head and shoulders above BJ, realize that some of us won't buy what you're shovelin'.

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 28 Jan 2009 5:13 pm

One thing that has always bugged me about rock critics was that it is too obvious to hate Billy Joel and too obvious to love Bruce Springsteen. I think sometimes we buy into what disgruntled literary rock geeks have to say. Same goes for the the bad rap the Eagles receive. I'm tired of rock critics slamming the Eagles as being a bunch a crap. Some of the stuff they did was less than desirable, sure. But look at Dylan's checkered career. He's made some doozies in his time as well. Personally, I don't mind "Take it Easy" and "Witchy Woman", even if a drunken, down-on-his-luck Gram Parsons deemed them crap before committing suicide by tequila and morphine, thereby earning himself a permanent place among rock critic royalty.

When I was 22, I carried around the Rolling Stone Album Guide and faithfully hated all the artists it told me to hate: Joel, Eagles, America, Toto, etc. Now that I'm 38, I like to trust my own instincts a little better. My apologies for digressing from the topic a bit.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 28 Jan 2009 5:53 pm

I don't recall writing that I idolize Bruce Springsteen.

But the first time I ever saw him play was with the E Street Band during the last days of Winterland in San Francisco in Dec. 1978. To this day, I don't believe I have ever seen a performer put out out more effort on stage than I saw that night.

The opposite of slamming Joel works with Springsteen - if you slam Bruce, you may appear more wise than the rest of the riff-raff that you are looking upon. You're above the fray, and you apparently aren't the type to march over the cliff with the rest of the lemmings.

Something about Springsteen doesn't set well with people over the course of history, and they've decided the guy isn't all he's cracked up to be. Fine - different strokes for different folks.

But give me a break - Springsteen vs. Joel in a 15 rounder for the championship of the New York City/Long Island/New Jersey "division" - you can't be serious! This is almost as off-the-wall as some of the posts in the Hendrix thread, or God forbid, the thread from a couple years ago extolling the virtues of the Starland Vocal Band's "Afternoon Delight" because it contained some pedal steel guitar!

Of course this stuff is all fodder for forum discussions - sort of the cyberspace version of guys sitting in a bar and discussing these earth-shaking matters over beer and pretzels, while the actual subjects were sighted playing music together a few weeks before the election last fall! Read all about it here:

http://tinyurl.com/5e8flm

Hey - I'm still hot for Christie Brinkley - Billy had her for awhile, but he couldn't hang onto her!

Leslie Ehrlich · Post by **Leslie Ehrlich** » 28 Jan 2009 8:23 pm

Mark Eaton wrote:Hey - I'm still hot for Christie Brinkley - Billy had her for awhile, but he couldn't hang onto her!

Yeah, I remember her in Joel's video of 'Uptown Girl'. Definitely eye candy in that video. But the thing that blew that video to bits was the scene showing two mechanics under a car and swinging their wrenches in time to 'ahh ahh ahh ahhs' at the beginning of the song. That was so corny I wanted to vomit. The style of music was also patterned after Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons when they were in their heyday back in the 1960s. I think Joel was overcome with nostalgia at the time. His prior video release, 'Tell Her About It' was his fantasy of appearing on the Ed Sullivan Show.

But I can't dis Billy Joel alone. There were other artists cranking out hokey songs at about the same time he released 'Tell Her About It' and 'Uptown Girl'. Hall and Oates had tunes like 'Out Of Touch' and 'Method Of Modern Love', the Pointer Sisters had 'I'm So Excited' and 'Neutron Dance', and just about anything by Madonna, Cyndi Lauper, or Culture Club was painful to endure. I quit listening to the radio in 1980 and I stopped watching music videos in 1987. After that I lost track of what was happening to popular music. The 1980s were the decade where it ended for me.

James Cann · Post by **James Cann** » 1 Feb 2009 1:46 pm

. . . two mechanics under a car and swinging their wrenches in time to 'ahh ahh ahh ahhs' at the beginning of the song. That was so corny I wanted to vomit.

So what? It was also quite clever, and if you're lucky, their faces will show you the fun they had putting the thing together.

The style of music was also patterned after Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons when they were in their heyday back in the 1960s.

Not a bad tribute for a signature group still mixing it up today.

I think Joel was overcome with nostalgia at the time.

Given so many musical trends now, who might not be?

His prior video release, 'Tell Her About It' was his fantasy of appearing on the Ed Sullivan Show.

Well, what music doesn't attach to one fantasy or another?