A word of warning - my bank's error!!!

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 26 Jan 2009 10:53 am

I've just completed a transaction with a Forum member in California in which I sold my Fessenden SD-10.

The buyer asked me how he should transmit the funds, and I said I'd prefer USPS Money Orders. He went to his Post Office the next day armed with the cash, and 'overnighted' the two checks to my home. They arrived by 3.00 pm next day (a Friday, by the way), whereupon I took them to three successive Naples Post Offices, but none had sufficient funds on any of their tills.

So far, the story is just 'one of those things'....

The PO guys advised me to take them to my bank and cash them there, or simply pay them into my account, and this is what I did. My Wachovia bank-teller assured me that all was well - not that I had, at that point, any reason to doubt it - and that I was secure in shipping the item. This I did, going straight to the Fedex counter.

Imagine my consternation when, by Tuesday morning, the deposit was not showing in my checking account! I called the bank, they 'investigated' and called me back, declaring: "The Money Orders had been counterfeit."!!! Remember - I had to call THEM!

Naturally, I called my customer and, while I accused him of nothing, I admit to taking a fairly brusque tone with him. He was shocked, and declared his innocence, agreeing to immediately transmit all the evidence he could muster. This he did, scanning and emailing the receipts. Everything looked fine, but it wasn't until I learned that there is a MO Verification line where the 11-digit check-number, the amount, and the issuing Post Office code can be entered, that the validity of the checks was virtually established.

With all this to-ing and fro-ing, my customer and I were become pretty well acquainted over the 'phone, and my instincts told me that his honesty was never in doubt. However, it was a very trying 48 hours, made even more so when some genius at Wachovia simply popped these endorsed (!!!) Money Orders in the ordinary mail back to me at my home address!

All's well that ends well; they did reach me safely and, as soon as I represented them at a Post Office - one week after their first arrival in FL - they were declared to be 'good', and I finally had the cash.

Wachovia got a tongue-lashing from me - not only for entrusting such sensitive documents to the mail, but for their careless use of the word 'counterfeit'! That caused a lot of distress both here and to my very patient buyer out west. I'm still awaiting a proper apology, but I've been assured it's coming. They've admitted - how could they not? - that their system needs 'looking at'.....

If anyone has occasion to deal with any kind of Money Order in the same way, I'd advise caution at your bank's counter.

Dave O'Brien · Post by **Dave O'Brien** » 26 Jan 2009 11:23 am

Hi Roger - I had a similar problem when someone sent me a MO for more than $ 1000. The limit is $999. but the postal clerk did it anyway. When I went to my p.o. to cash it I was accused of being a forger! Fortunately the buyer was an honest guy and when I mailed the m.o. back he sent me 3 good and smaller ones. Now I only do Paypal. hang the fees!

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 26 Jan 2009 11:28 am

Hi yourself, Dave!

Well - in your case, there actually was a problem with the check, even 'though the mistake was made in all honesty. With my transaction, the buyer had, quite properly, bought two checks, as the amount was over $1800. There was NO excuse for my bank finding a problem, and their handling of the matter was unforgivable.

Danny Bates · Post by **Danny Bates** » 26 Jan 2009 11:32 am

Roger,

Thank you for this valuable information. That sounds like a rough thing to go through.

Can you please give us more info regarding this sentence?

but it wasn't until I learned that there is a MO Verification line where the 11-digit check-number, the amount, and the issuing Post Office code can be entered, that the validity of the checks was virtually established.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 26 Jan 2009 11:42 am

Danny

Once my buyer forwarded me a copy of the documents - his counterfoils and his receipts from the Post Office showing the time of purchase, as well as the receipt for the 'Overnight' charge - I had all the detail I needed.

A forged check would, I'm certain, be totally incapable of passing a screening system that requires the 11-digit check #, the actual amount on each check (both different in this case) as well as the branch-code for the Post Office of origin. Once my buyer's information was successfully 'paired' with the Post Office's records, then it was virtually certain - before I actually held them in my hand and cashed them - that they were legitimate.

My buyer also went to some lengths to obtain the actual PO branch 'phone number; they were unable to confirm the sale (beyond their capabilities days later), but they did inform me of that Post Office 1-800 number that I needed.

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 26 Jan 2009 11:45 am

I don't accept any Postal Money orders anymore. Too much fraud! My local Post Office won't even cash them unless there is a large reserve fund in their daily till and the till starts all over every morning with $50. Even if your bank had accepted the Postal MO's and credited your account AND even if they cashed them for you, they would come back to you for the money weeks or months later if they bounced. Banks rarely clear check's or MO's in a few days, even though they have a stated clearance time. I can't even call my bank to see if an item was actually cleared at the other bank.

That's why I use PayPal only. The extra 3% expense is worth the peace of mind and getting an immediate payment.

Greg

admin · Post by **b0b** » 26 Jan 2009 12:00 pm

My bank declared a Canadian Postal MO to be counterfeit. I knew it wasn't and got an email from the someone in the Canadian government verifying that they had actually paid my bank the money! I took that to the bank, they investigated and apologized profusely. Someone was sternly reprimanded, I'm sure, and the bank's internal policies were changed.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 26 Jan 2009 12:10 pm

Greg: No fraud in this case - just errors in their handling of the situation.

b0b's situation sounds very similar to mine. While I didn't 'know' these were 'good' until a day or so later, I was sure beyond a reasonable doubt.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that I'd never accept MOs again - these were fine - but I won't consider them 'good' in the future until the Post Office has handed me the cash, and I'd never try to clear them through a bank again.

Roger Kelly · Post by **Roger Kelly** » 26 Jan 2009 1:01 pm

I have had problems with USPS Money Orders, but nothing like some of you have had.
However, I do think that the US Post Office should be REQUIRED to have enough money on hand to cash their Money Orders.
If they are going to sell them.... they should be required to cash them...I shouldn't have to take it to my Bank to cash it.

Roger Guyett · Post by **Roger Guyett** » 26 Jan 2009 1:12 pm

hi -

I was the buyer in the story Roger has described - yes, my name's Roger too.
It was certainly a grueling few days. You can only imagine how distressing it was for the 2 of us! I was absolutely mortified - my first dip into the pedal steel world and suddenly it was all going horribly wrong!

This turn of events put 2 honest people in a position where our level of trust was pushed to the limit. How would you react if someone at a bank told you you'd deposited counterfeit MOs? Yes, I'd be upset too - but, also, how would you feel if someone told you that you'd sent counterfeit MOs, when you knew they were real? When you're both honest - the obvious reaction is that the OTHER person is up to no good!!! Which in our case was simply not the case, but caused through a bank error!!!

Anyway - what I learnt from this is dont use MOs. Im never going to do that again. Our story had a happy ending but I realised along the way that there are just too many ways for it to go wrong - essentially theyre just not accountable enoug. Thankfully our story had a happy ending - I love the steel guitar I bought, Roger's bank balance is better off, and more importantly, through all of it, I made a friend in Roger Rettig (a real gentleman)

All the best,
Roger

Leonard G. Robertson · Post by **Leonard G. Robertson** » 26 Jan 2009 1:42 pm

I used a couple of walmart m.o. well in excess of $1000.00 to purchase a carter steel from a forum member couple of yrs. ago. We spent all day trying to get them cashed. After involving store managers from 3 locations & threat to small claims, they only did it out kindness, saying it is up to the descression of the particular store managers involved. No more large walmart m.o. for after that for me.

Bert Deivert · Post by **Bert Deivert** » 26 Jan 2009 2:27 pm

For my money (excuse the pun) Pay Pal or bank transfers are the way to go. I always pay these ways and no hassle. Since I live in Sweden it is virtually impossible to send or cash a money order to the US!

I had a very nice transaction with a forum member recently buying his Regal Dobro and it went without a hitch!

all the best
BERT

Steve Hitsman · Post by **Steve Hitsman** » 26 Jan 2009 2:55 pm

I'm sure with the federal bailout, Wachovia will eliminate these kind of situations.

Mike Archer · Post by **Mike Archer** » 26 Jan 2009 3:04 pm

I agree they should have enough cash on hand to
cash there own money orders............

but they never do! so far Ive sent mine through the bank with no trouble

I dont sell much big items anymore little items its about as easy to take a check for them if they are a forum member that is/ or cash

oh well the times they are a changin!

Robert Parent · Post by **Robert Parent** » 26 Jan 2009 3:46 pm

I will never, ever use bank wire transfers in a deal to buy or sell after getting caught in a fraud scheme a few years back. FWIW, you have no legal recourse in wire transfers. A person can get taken in other ways but at least there is a paper trail for the lawyers to follow. It's sad, but both buyer and seller need to beware these days.

steve takacs · Post by **steve takacs** » 26 Jan 2009 4:10 pm

Glad it turned out well for both Rogers. I will continue to use MOs and Bank Cashiers Checks rather than Paypal in my transactions. If I get into a car every day, I take a chance I'll be in an accident.. If I ride my bicycle or walk, ditto. And what about the stock or the housing markets? Everyone's risk tolerance is different, so you go with what is in your comfort zone.

I've only had one deal gone bad and that was only recently with a Forum member, but I'm still hoping he will come through. I largely blame myself for that one as I sent out the item prior to getting the funds. In any case, it's not going to keep me from dealing with all the other members of The Forum. I feel as if the odds are stacked in my favor in a major way. Thanks, stevet

Terry Barnett · Post by **Terry Barnett** » 26 Jan 2009 4:17 pm

This is all very informative. I'm from Canada and have never had any problems with USPS money orders until my bank pointed out one day that they are clearly marked "only redeemable in the United States of America" and that the bank would no longer be covering USPS MOs. I too was lucky enough to be dealing with an honest buyer at the time and everything worked out. Since then it is strictly Paypal or International money orders for me. Happy endings are nice but as far as waiting for an apology from the bank...don't hold your breath unless purple is your favorite color

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 26 Jan 2009 4:36 pm

Roger Guyett wrote:

" I made a friend in Roger Rettig (a real gentleman)"

See? Someone still got scammed in this deal!!!!
(Just kidding, Rog - many thanks for your gracious post earlier. I think we retained the moral high-ground throughout the whole business. I await news of your progress on pedal steel guitar!)

I had a call early last week from the manager of the Wachovia branch involved. She asked for Roger's address so that they could write to him shouldering the blame. (I think I'm due a letter, too!) So far, it seems, they haven't done so, or I'm sure Roger would have told me, but I live in hope.

In the end it does no good to make grand gestures and 'take my business elsewhere...', because, while I'm going through all this, someone poor sucker is getting fed up with Bank of America and taking their business to Wachovia! They don't care about us as individuals; it's only en masse that we are of any consequence.

Steve T. is quite right, of course. At the point at which I knew Roger to be honest, and I was just hanging on for the return of the MOs from my bank (if they'd gone astray, I'd have been short the money, with no come-back), I suddenly realised that I was at peace with the whole business. Roger would have his guitar - to which he was quite entitled - and I would have been the victim of an unfortunate accident.

The sun was still shining, and my new Telecasters are both exquisite. My wife still loves me, and I birdied the last hole today for a 78...

Al Vesel · Post by **Al Vesel** » 26 Jan 2009 5:06 pm

I had a grueling test with money orders also. I supposedly purchased a Derby D10 from a guy. I asked how he wanted to get paid. I gave him the option. He said postal money orders. So I went and got the funds and sent them to him via mail. After he received them someone told him that there were counterfeit money orders going around and that he couldn't complete the deal. I wasn't a happy camper and I let him know that, because I was the one that gave him the option as to how he wanted to get paid. Well, I told him to go to the post office and they can verify that they are original and they will cash them it they have funds.

Well, I thought I finally had him convinced that they were ok. A couple of days went by and I phoned him to ask if he shipped the guitar yet.

Again, he said that he was really worried about it and would not honor the deal.

So he sent the funds back to me. He said that the more he thought about it he was afraid to ship an expensive piece of equipment in fear of freight damage. I am sure that was an excuse just not to ship.

It is getting harder and harder to cash any type of funds. Especially when you tell the guy to go to the post office and they will verify if there are real and they still won't ship.

There may be a day when paypal will the the only way to go. I use paypal, but when you want to pass along the 3% fee on to the customer they sometimes go beserk.

Al Vesel

Tommy Young · Post by **Tommy Young** » 26 Jan 2009 6:36 pm

MONEY ORDERS ARE NOT THE ONLY PROBLEM BUT THE USPS WILL TRACE THEM WHEREVER YOU SEND THEM TOO when people say they didn't get the monies, plus it is fraud to do this over the US mail,,, so now a cashiers check isn't worth a penny is what I'm told there is more fraudulent cashiers checks than usps money orders was what my bank told me. but the banks themselves are such money hungry beast they don't want to cash or take any other such payments that you take because they don't make a dime off that type of transaction. They like to make money not help you period..That is what these banks here tell anyone. they charge the people here 25.00 to cash their social security checks and surely the gov. can print enough to cover their own checks at least I've never herd of one bouncing """YET""" but these demo's are testing the printing presses purty good

Stan Paxton · Post by **Stan Paxton** » 26 Jan 2009 9:05 pm

Well, it's looking like harder and harder to find ways to take care of deals over $100. I have had no Postal MO problems, but rarely over $100. I have experienced problems getting my $ out of Paypal, having to take it out piecemeal which tied up my $ I needed to pay on another deal. ...We do have guys on the Forum who are great to do business with;

I bought a psg from Randy Gilliam who asked only for personal check from me, and everything went great. ..So, Rogers both, glad to hear it did get worked out OK.

Darrell Owens · Post by **Darrell Owens** » 26 Jan 2009 11:29 pm

Be GLAD this happened on THE FORUM, and not ebay or CL. I have found eberyone I have met on this forum to be honest and easy to work with. I am sure if the had been a problem the bank could not fix, the two rogers would have found a way to make it right.

ROGER THAT !

Bill Myrick · Post by **Bill Myrick** » 27 Jan 2009 3:59 am

I heard that our bank here in Pea Ridge is going to stop taking eggs and chickens ----what's the world coming to ????

Billy Henderson · Post by **Billy Henderson** » 27 Jan 2009 6:27 am

I will never ever again buy from those that accept Money Orders Only. I am not going to the bank and draw out a fistfull of hundred dollar bills and hold them until I can get to the post office and stand in line. I don't need the item that bad. FERGET IT.

I will send a Cashiers Cheque and the seller can hold the item until the money is safe in his bank.

Larry Scott · Post by **Larry Scott** » 27 Jan 2009 6:52 am

I left Wachovia years ago, they just out and out suck.

This kind of stuff happens all the time with them.
I'm forever hearing horror stories about'um

There.....I feel better now

The Steel Guitar Forum

A word of warning - my bank's error!!!

A word of warning - my bank's error!!!

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