Single string vs. Chordal tunings

Edward Meisse · From: Santa Rosa, California, USA

Is there really a dichotomy here? It seems to me that the 6th tunings that I love are great single string tunings BECAUSE they are great chordal tunings. Can you really have one without the other?
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Dean Gray · From: New South Wales, Australia

Interesting topic Edward, though I am not familiar with enough variety of tunings to really speak authoritatively!

However...after studying jazz guitar improvisation with some great teachers this year, one thing seems consistent with the really good musicians, regardless of what they play: they know where all the chord tones are on their instrument.

Rather than teaching licks or phrases, or even blindly playing scales up and down the fretboard, the emphasis was on knowing where the chord tones were at any time. The chord tones 1,3,5, and their extensions are what defines the harmony of the moment, and overall chord progression of the tune. It seems to me if you know where the chord tones and their extensions are, and are able to touch on the chord tones/outline them as they pass by in a tune, it is then easier to think and play melodically.

Thats why the 6th tunings seem to work best for me. Slowly a visual map of the fretboard and chord tones is starting to form in my brain....verrry slowly.

As far as having "one without the other", I am waiting to hear from Basil, Ray, and other seasoned veterans among us (said respectfully!).
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Edward Meisse · From: Santa Rosa, California, USA

Yes, that's what I was hoping for, too.
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Ray Langley · From: Northern California, USA

First of all, while it is gratifying to be mentioned in the same sentence with real experts, like Basil, I profess to be a rank beginner!

I just now posted my take on this subject a few minutes ago in this thread, at 6:05 p.m., on this date (12/26/08). This was before reading this thread:

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=148111&start=50

Dean Gray seems to have found his own brand of tuning happiness in the C6. So have thousands of others. But, if one tuning worked perfectly for everyone, then we would only need one tuning.

I have a book, "The Complete Book of Alternate Tunings" by Mark Hansen. On the front cover it says: "Includes Hundreds of Guitar Tunings". There are chapters on Slide Tunings, Hawaiian Tunings, etc. But nowhere in this book could I find a single mention of C6, E6, etc.

What style of music is your "main thing"? Or, who do YOU want to sound like? If you want to produce a sound like Jerry Byrd or Don Helms, then one of the "6th" family of tunings will do the trick.

In the past, many people in my age group (dinosaurs) wanted to sound just like Chet Atkins on guitar. I found out later that Chet played several tunes in G6 (DGDGBE), Open D, CGDGBE, Drop D, and Open G, as well as standard tuning. Some songs are vastly easier to play or sound better in certain tunings.

basilh · From: United Kingdom

basilh · From: United Kingdom

As an addendum: I do believe that musical knowledge to some degree is a pre-requisite of a would be player.
Not the full academic theory, but just understanding of chord structure, scales and keys etc.
I would place the emphasis more heavily on the understanding of the chordal structure of the song/tune, this would lead to improvisational escapades being more colourful and less of a guesstimate. IMHO

Maybe more should stay with single string playing, (As discussed in another thread) nothing sounds worse than wrong harmonies or chords. Perhaps the single string playing should be recommended to players with little or no knowledge of the chordal structure of the tunes they play.

Recently Pat and myself had to back a prominent player at one of our conventions ... Not only did he not know the chords of the numbers he played, he couldn't tell us the keys !! Whoa!

The playing was "Parrot Fashion" from the original 78's, AND it was quite good ... such a pity, because the player in question could have, and should have, been one of the very top players, had he bothered to study the musicality of what he was emulating.

I see this quite often at conventions, players with good vibrato, intonation and picking technique, but absolutely devoid of any but the barest musical knowledge.

Single string emulation of the definitive old masters work, would be a way of playing without having to bother about things like chords and harmony, but then how could you improvise or play behind the singer in a meaningful and correct way ?
Without musical knowledge, grace notes, ornamentation and other goodies from the "Bag of Tricks" can't be utilsed accurately.

The old masters Like Sol, Andy, Dick, Eddy etc. and more recently, Jules Ah See, Billy Hew Len, Danny Stewart, Freddie and Ernie Tavares and Jerry Byrd, had a far greater musical knowledge than is generally accepted.

I've recently encountered tunes from the 30's where the Hawaiian Guitarist has played chords like "Half Diminished" (m7b5) admittedly only partial inversions, but none the less, correct.
Sol used the dominant seventh to ninth change spectacularly and also often used the tonic minor as a substitute for the sub dominant seventh.
The half diminished use I'm referring to is the one between the "1" chord and the "6-7th" (In C .. C to A7, Em7b5) played as a Gm leaving the root to the bass player.
An example of the use of this chord, to remember (For help with later recognition) is the 2nd chord of "Don't Blame Me" for example, or in "Indebted to You," the "a" as in "I'd gladly be A slave".

At this point I should mention that if you DON'T understand the terminologies I'm using, you really should take "time out to find out" or don't you think it matters ?
I'd like to hear your views..

Do you know what diminished chords emphasize the standard change from the root (1) (Tonic) to the subdominant's relative minor (2m) in an upward or downward feel ?
If you did know, you could add or relieve tension to the lines at will, and play fills that would lead and help the vocalist.

I often hear the comment "If it sounds right etc" used as an excuse for wrong or alternate notes/chords, but, sounds right, TO WHO ? the player, certainly not, surely it should be the listener ?
I also hear the comment bandied about, "One correct note is worth etc." knowledge of chordal structure would make finding that particular note much easier.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Ray Langley · From: Northern California, USA

Hi b0b, Over the years I have heard many players use the term "single-string soloing". I believe that what they are referring to is "single-note soloing". This refers to playing one note at a time, rather than using a chordally based system. Most instruments fall into this category, i.e. all the woodwinds and brass, etc. Keyboards and guitar-like instruments are polyphonic and offer a choice.

Ray Langley · From: Northern California, USA

I suggest that everyone listen to Basil. He knows what he is talking about.

The book I mentioned above on Alternate Tunings was published in 1995. Mark Hanson has written several other books, including one on Slide Guitar and "Masters of Hawaiian Slack Key Guitar". His offerings are for fingerstyle guitarists. But, there is no mention of C6 tuning in either of these books either.

I strongly agree with you about the "Tonal Center" is what determines the choices of tunings.

Almost all the songs I want to learn are slow love songs, so speed is not an issue for me, personally.

My wife suffers from an inner ear disorder called "Meiniere's Disease". It is like tinninitus with migraine-like symptoms. It can be triggered by changes in elevation, stress, or some high pitched sounds. So, I try to arrange most of what I play at the 12th fret, or lower. For lap steel, almost all of my practicing is done on an unplugged, electric instrument so as not to trigger an attack, which can last up to several weeks. This is an example of luck of the draw.... a musician married to someone who is basically allergic to music. Smile

Doug Beaumier · From: Northampton, MA

I agree with Basil... a tuning with close intervals is best for single note picking. Diatonic is the ultimate for this IMHO, but 13th, Alkire, Morrell, etc. tunings are also well suited for single note work. To play that style you need a lot of notes within one or two frets. You Don't want a lot bar movement when playing single string stuff. But... such a tuning is not well suited for "strumming" chords. The chords are there, but you have to be more selective, pick certain strings and omit others.

I go back and forth between a half dozen or so non-pedal tunings, but right now I've settled on C6/A7 and A Diatonic on my D-8. C6/A7 is a nice combination tuning with very accessible chords, licks, and slants. And it's an easy re-tune to B11. I really like those fat 7th and 9th chords on B11! And A Diatonic offers close intervals which makes melody lines and fast licks easier to play.

John Ely's article on lap steel tunings and their advantages and disadvantages is very informative. It's the best summary of lap tunings I've ever seen ---> CLICK

Ray, that book on Alternate Tunings is primarily for regular guitar isn't it? It may also cover some slide guitar tunings, slack key, etc... but if it was written in 1995 and makes no mention of C6 tuning, then Lap Steel is not the focus of that book.
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basilh · From: United Kingdom

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

So, a single string tuning is like Jerry Byrd's C Diatonic? But JB played lots of two-note harmony solos on that tuning, and of course all of the three-note chords are there.

What's another good example of a single string tuning?
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Doug Beaumier · From: Northampton, MA

Edward Meisse · From: Santa Rosa, California, USA

John Ely's article is great. And yes I certainly agree with Basil that knowledge of music theory is essential. You'll learn the instrument much faster if you have some theoretical knowledge. But you can also pick it up as you go either purposely or just by osmosis. But if you pick it up in the latter way you may not be able to talk about it with other musicians. That'd make working with them difficult. I did meet a very good singer-songwriter at a music festival once who knew NO theory at all. But he did understand (by osmosis as it were) how the tonic, subdominant and dominant chords functioned. He wrote very bluesy traditional country songs. On a couple of occassions he had to say, "I don't know the name of this chord but...." Lack of theoretical grounding is very limiting.
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Ray Langley · From: Northern California, USA

Doug, thanks for posting the link to John Ely's article on lap steel tunings. That was the final factor that pushed me off the fence in the direction of C6/A7. I have ordered a used copy of Jerry Byrd's Course. Thanks for the extra nudge I needed in the right direction. I fought it tooth-and-nail, but have finally decided to "bite the bullet" and do what must be done.

Yes, Mark Hanson's instructional materials are directed to fingerstyle and slide, not lap steel, players. But, it does make me wonder that if C6 is so great for lap steel, why is it never mentioned for slide? There are tons of tunings for slide, and many of them are not just tuned to major chords. All slide styles are not based around only big major chords.

basilh · From: United Kingdom

Mike Neer · From: NJ

Ray Langley · From: Northern California, USA

Thanks Basil, I think you have nailed it. That may explain the reluctance many of us ex-sliders have for taking the plunge into pure steel. It is a major decision. Slidesters are giving up quite a bit, like the ability to play real chords along with the straight sliding sounds, assuming the slide is on the pinky finger. And, there is the fretting behind the slide, made famous by those like Sonny Langreth.

Pure steel has the advantages of forward and reverse slants and richer, more complex harmonic possibilities. And, there is the technique of "pulling" strings behind the bar to give a nice "bluesy" texture. I don't know anything about that yet, but I am attracted to that particular sound. I keep hoping someone will start a thread on that subject.

I know that I need a personal teacher. I also know that the Universe will provide one, when the time is right. Now that I am a brand-new dedicated "C6'er", I think that time is soon to come.

Ray Langley · From: Northern California, USA

Hi Mike, it looks you and I were typing at the same time. You know much more than I do, and I value your opinion highly, but I don't see such a drastic difference.

From the little bit I have heard from your playing, it seems like you are closer to a Dobro player than a lap steel player. Is that an incorrect observation? This is in no way confrontational, I am really curious......

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

basilh · From: United Kingdom

Ray, as an aside, if you really like slide playing take a listen to my friend Kevin Brown
Click Here

As for Mike, he's NEERLY a player, or is that merely a player, or is it he's just a player Really ?
I'll get near (neer) eventually..

Ray Langley · From: Northern California, USA

Basil, your friend Kevin Brown epitomizes all of the advantages I mentioned about playing slide versus lap steel. If my left hand worked as well as it used to, I would stick with slide......

Alan, a Diddley Bow also only has one string.

Marriage is like a steel guitar.... After the beautiful music is over, the strings are still attached!

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

John Bushouse · Posted 28 Dec 2008 9:23 pm

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