An Ideal 6-String Lap Steel Tuning

Ray Langley · Post by **Ray Langley** » 17 Dec 2008 4:23 am

Tuning Evolution E7_C#Minor7-b9

I recently hung up my slides and became a full time lap steel player! I have been racking my brain trying to decide on a 6-String Tuning that would satisfy my specific needs. I do realize that this may likely not be the ideal tuning for YOU!

Here was my Wish List:

A. It must be practical to adapt to from Open E Tuning to the new tuning.

B. It must have the full triad for Major and Minor chords on 3 adjacent strings (no string-skipping grips).

C. It must have the full 4 adjacent strings for Minor 7th and Dominant 7th chords.

D. Ideally, it must have the root of the chords on the bottom.

E. It must allow me to play the 1-6-2-5 progression without slants or string-skipping grips. In the Key of C, this is: C-Am-Dm7-G7. In the Key of E, this is: E-C#m-F#m7-B7. With these four chord types I can play just about everything that interests me.

F. I don't want my playing to sound "Hawaiian", unless I am playing Hawaiian music!!!

G. I use bare thumb and fingers (no picks). This way I can sometimes strum up with the index finger or even strum down with the back of the index finger. I would also like to retain the ability to play in the "plucking style" like most other players.

H. To play harmonized scales in thirds and sixths harmonies, I prefer straight or forward slants only.

I. Ideally, I would like to still be able to play nasty blues, ala Elmore James, without having to do any retuning.

I don't care much for Western Swing or Bluegrass. I don't want to sound like Mr. Byrd or 'Ole Hank. I want to sound like ME while playing the tunes I love. Most of these tunes are available for free download from forum member Doug Beaumier's site. Most
are Love Songs/Standards.

================================================

Over the past several days I made up "Lap Maps" for almost every conceivable tuning for a 6-string lap steel. I LOVE Open E/D Tuning, but it is limited when it comes to playing Minor, Minor 7, and Dom. 7th chords! I worked with tunings that allowed for
Dom. 7th chords but had no provision for Minor or Minor 7th chords. I looked at many different C#Minor7 tunings, but they could not offer Dom. 7th chords. The two tunings that held my interest the longest were the C6/A7 "Jerry Byrd" tuning and the Leavitt tunings. If they had satisfied my personal requirements, I would have gone with one
or both of them! Here is why they were not chosen:

C6/A7 Tuning

A. No! Very different from Open E.
B. No major triad on three adjacent strings. Minor triad is ok.
C. Minor 7 and Dom 7 ok.
D. No! Root is on the bottom ONLY on the Minor chord.
E. No!
F. No! (But, this may be a matter of opinion)
G. No!
H. No!

Leavitt Tuning

A. No! Very different from Open E (or any other tuning).
B. No! It has string-skipping for Major & Minor Chords.
C. No! There is no Min. 7th chord under the bar!
D. No! Only the Minor chord has the root on the bottom.
E. No!
F. ??? It probably does not sound Hawaiian.....
G. No!
H. No!

I have NOTHING against either of the two above tunings. I'm sure they are excellent for many thousands of players around the world. You have been in suspense long enough. Here is my new tuning.

I call it RayzE7th_C#Minor7th.

From Low to High: D-C#-E-G#-B-E (E7th Tuning)
From Low to High: b7-6-1-3-5-1

==OR--

From Low to High: b9-1-b3-5-b7-b3 (C#Minor7 with b9 Tuning)

If some of you music theory majors can come up with a better name for this tuning, I am all ears.

Here is how this tuning stacks up with MY criteria:

A. Yes! The top four strings are identical to Open E tuning. So, all of the familiar scales (Major, Minor, Minor Pentatonic, Blues, etc.) are the same as Open E.
B. Yes! It has full Major and Minor triads on adjacent strings.
C. Almost! There is a four adjacent string Minor 7th. The Dom. 7th chord has one string-skip between the b7 and the other adjacent notes.
D. Almost! The Major, Minor, and Minor 7th chords ALL have the root on the
bottom. The Dom. 7th has the b7 on the bottom.
E. Yes!
F. Yes!
G. Yes!
H. Yes!
I. Yes! Thank goodness, my Open E blues licks work well, especially on the first four strings. I think that with this tuning, I will no longer need Open E.

Last thoughts: I am an old man (65). I am not well. I probably have enough time to focus on ONE tuning, and hopefully learn it well to perform for friends and family. I don't plan to be learning a new tuning every week or so. I am hoping that this one will do the trick, for ME. My goal is to make a solo CD or DVD of me playing my favorite songs. It will be played at my funeral. I honestly appreciate any and all CONSTRUCTIVE criticizm, either positive or negative on this topic. I searched the forum archives and the internet. I could find no reference to this tuning. If this is of any interest to others who are thinking about moving on to a tuning similiar to Open E,
I am happy to post some scales and chord diagrams for this tuning.

Season's Greetings to All,
Ray Langley, Sacramento, CA

Ray Langley · Post by **Ray Langley** » 17 Dec 2008 4:36 am

The downside to this tuning is that there ia absolutely no instructional materials available! That's ok because I can't afford them anyway.

On the upside, it will take a lot of time, but I think I can arrange most of the tunes I want to play. Almost all of the 3rds and 6ths harmonies are either a straight bar or a one-fret forward slant.

And, the sixth string is slightly smaller than the fifth string. Is that a problem? I do prefer very fat strings for my style of play. Can anyone suggest string gauges for this tuning?

Who will sell me a set of strings for a 22.5" scale Rondo Lap Steel (6-string) and a Variax 300 Electric with a raised nut (25" scale), also 6-string?

Ray

Chuck Mahoney · Post by **Chuck Mahoney** » 17 Dec 2008 5:52 am

Hi Ray - two things: I've enjoyed all of your "Lap map" postings; they are very helpful! And 65 isn't old these days...

I have the same interest in a new tuning that you do. I've only recently started playing lap steel, and my wife was nice enough to give me an early Christmas present of a Rondo SX. I'm a slide player, so although I toyed with C6 tuning at first, I've been sticking with open E/D because I am familiar with it. I figured that once I felt comfortable with the lap technique, I would move on to other tunings. E6 was a possibility.

I'm going to give your tuning a try, and see what happens. Thanks for all of your hard work. Happy Holidays!

Post by **Brad Bechtel** » 17 Dec 2008 7:50 am

That is an interesting variation on the open E tuning, Ray. The seventh note (low D) and sixth note (C#) of the E scale give you a lot of chordal possibilities.

Here are some suggested string gauges:
1. E - .015
2. B - .019
3. G# - .024
4. E - .030
5. C# - .036
6. D - .034 (this is one step higher than the fifth string)

Obviously you'll have to make up your own set of strings. Good luck with that tuning!

Bill Leff · Post by **Bill Leff** » 17 Dec 2008 10:22 am

I'd call this tuning "Ray's E13" since it contains both the dominant 7th and 6th tones, which are the tones that define the 13th chord.

James Kerr · Post by **James Kerr** » 17 Dec 2008 11:05 am

I'm lost too, I think I will give this a try since I'm not very happy with the other tunings I have tried.

James.

Theo Patterson · Post by **Theo Patterson** » 17 Dec 2008 12:30 pm

I'm constantly amazed by the depth of knowledge found here on the forum.

Ray, that tuning looks pretty interesting. I'm going to map it up and see what I can find. I'm no music scholar so I'm wondering how would that logically extend to eight strings?

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 17 Dec 2008 12:33 pm

There is no ideal lap steel tuning only players who spend their lives searching for it.

Ron Whitfield · Post by **Ron Whitfield** » 17 Dec 2008 1:17 pm

Could this be significantly advanced/improved with - G# E C# B G# E C# D or is it redundant?

Ray Langley · Post by **Ray Langley** » 17 Dec 2008 3:40 pm

Wow! Thank you everyone for the encouraging responses.

Chuck, Thank you for your kind words. I also got an early present of a Rondo SX. I have also toyed with the C6 and some other tunings. In fact, I was studying "Joy to the World" in Scotty's Mel Bay book.
The first 8 notes are a descending major scale, so it looked like a good place to start. It was fairly difficult for me in C6, so I tried the same tune
in Open E using parallel sixths harmony on strings 1 and 3. For me, it was infinitely easier to play. Then I started making my wish list of what I would like to see in a tuning.

Brad, thank you sir. I'll put together a set of those string gauges. If you like, feel free to post the tuning on your "Page of Steel".

Bill, you got it! RayzEZ_E13 it is. Thank you.

James, I know exactly what you mean by being lost. It would be nice to have 8 or more strings, but I think this one will work well for 6 strings.

Theo, in my next post, I'll include a map for the major scales in the keys of C and E.

Andy, I agree with you. Every tuning does have its good and bad points. I'm hoping that my search is over.

Ron, I don't know enough about 8 strings to comment on that.

Ray Langley · Post by **Ray Langley** » 17 Dec 2008 3:50 pm

Here are the lap maps for the keys of C and E.

Robert Murphy · Post by **Robert Murphy** » 17 Dec 2008 3:56 pm

My newest ideal tuning comes from Dobro G and A major. Try lo to hi ACEGBD or AC#EGBD. In the first tuning there seems to be no wrong notes only jazz overtones. A minor 11. The second tuning gives you all the major, minor, Dom 7, minor 7, without inversions.A11
I use string gauges .054, .042, .032, .026p, .022p, .018p. Whats realy neat is that each chord is duplicated just two frets away but an octave apart for some variation in the case of A11. Alot of chords in most progressions also fall just under or over the one you are on.

Ray Langley · Post by **Ray Langley** » 17 Dec 2008 3:59 pm

Here is a Lap Map for the 1-6-2-5 in the Key of E:

Ray Langley · Post by **Ray Langley** » 17 Dec 2008 6:56 pm

Robert, congratulations on your A C# E G B E Tuning. Here is how it stacks up to my own "Wish List" for an ideal tuning. See above for the letter
designations:

A. Yes and No! It is not adaptable from Open E/D, but it is great for going from Open G/A to a more complete tuning.

B. Yes! With the added benefit of TWO major chord voicings an octave apart. That can be quite handy.

C. Yes!

D. Yes! Yes! Yes! Every chord type of the 1-6-2-5 progression has the root on the bottom. This is a biggie, in my opinion. Good job.

E. Yes!

F. Each player can answer this one for him/herself.

G. Yes!

H. No! In my opinion, this is one of the major shortcomings (for me)in this tuning. Thirds harmony can be played on strings 2 and 1 using all straight bar or single-fret forward slants. But, on strings 3 and 2, you need reverse slants. The main thing I find missing here is the sixths harmony played on strings 3 and 1. Each position is either a one fret
forward slant or a two fret forward slant. This is manageable if you are playing fingerpicking guitar, but is a big pain in the butt for lap steel. I
do realize that there are masters who play slide/lap in Open G, but it does not work well for me.

I. Yes and No! While this tuning will NOT work well for Elmore James type Open E blues licks. It should work well for many Open G type blues licks.

I have just now made some diagrams for major scale, pentatonic scale, and the 1-6-2-5 progression, for your tuning. If you would like to open a new thread on your tuning, I'll be happy to post the diagrams there so as to avoid any confusion between the two tunings here.

Ron Whitfield · Post by **Ron Whitfield** » 17 Dec 2008 8:54 pm

...I was just tossing it out there for whomever/discourse, and I'd go with it any way if I liked it.

I'll be trying it, someday. Thanx for posting!

Robert Murphy · Post by **Robert Murphy** » 18 Dec 2008 6:41 pm

Thanks Ray. I have an "Alternate Tuning Application" downloaded from Brian Quaide. It does everything for me including modes and scales, note names and numbers too.

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 18 Dec 2008 8:40 pm

It really depends on what you're trying to play. The venerable tunings like C6 and E13 and Leavitt, etc. can take you a long way. I use all the E variations, C6, and a tuning that I came up with that would blow your mind, but it's strictly for pedal steel type applications. I'm dying to get a few recorded examples up, it is that cool.

If you really want to get the most out of your 6 string steel, you'll have to get accustomed to doing a lot of slants and really knowing your fretboard--there's no way around it.

Ray Langley · Post by **Ray Langley** » 19 Dec 2008 1:05 am

Hi Robert Murphy,

I LOVE YOUR A11 TUNING! I just didn't know how to say that without shouting. After much careful consideration I must concede that I like your tuning much better than the one I posted above. I was looking for a one-size fits all tuning. I was expecting more than is probably possible with only 6 strings. I think, at this point, I will explore your
tuning in greater depth, while retaining my Open E tuning for certain songs and styles.

For review, here is Roberts A11 Tuning: (Low to High) A C# E G B D

I'll stick with the Key of C for simplicity. The four "primary" chords are C Am Dm7 and G7. In other words, we have a: I-Maj, vi-min, ii-min7, and a Vdom.7.

All four of these chords have the root of the chord on the bottom.

All four of these chords have the notes in order. For instance, the G7 has the root on the bottom, then the third. then the fifth, then the flatted seventh. This is also true for a four-note C6, a five-note C9, and a six-note C-11.

This tuning could be played by someone with two artificial arms, as long as they could hold a bar in the left prosthetic and a pick of some kind in the right prosthetic. Don't worry folks, this is NOT some kind of a slur on the handicapped. I park in the handicapped zone myself. It was a genuine positive observation. I have been recently told by several seniors that they might like to learn the instrument, but arthritis, etc. prevents them from trying. With almost all of the important chords right under the bar, they could play rhythm lap steel.

Still keeping with the Key of C, the C Major Scale has 6 of the 7 scale tones under the bar at fret 10.

The Minor Pentatonic Scale lies neatly in small "boxes".

This tuning does not have a Major 7th chord directly under the bar, but with the types of music I like, I really can't remember the last time I played a Major 7th or even a 6th chord......

But, all my research and experiments on my E13 tuning was not a waste of time. If I had not posted my idea of an ideal tuning, you would not have posted yours. I prefer yours better than mine. Thank you, sir!

Ray Langley · Post by **Ray Langley** » 19 Dec 2008 1:42 am

Mike Neer,

Thank you so much for your valued input. You said: "It really depends on what you're trying to play."

That statement hits the proverbial nail right on the head! I have read through hundreds of threads in the forum archives.

Everytime anyone asks about the "best tuning" for lap steel, the first response is usually along the lines of: "Electric or Acoustic?, How many strings?, and What type of music do you want to play?"

I will try to be as specific as possible in the sincere desire that you and some of the other pros here can guide me in the best way.

I will be playing lap steel exclusively on a (damaged) Rondo SX 6 string and a Variax 300 electric with a dobro-type nut raiser. The Variax has a couple of redeeming attributes that should work well for lap steel. I haven't tried this yet, but using a software called "Workbench", I can program the instrument to play in any desired tuning with the flip of a switch! This means I can use
a set of fat strings for Open E, and retain those fat strings and switch between ANY other tunings. This means I can switch between Open E and Bob Murphy's A11 instantly, without touching any tuning keys. So, if I am in Bob's A11, I can use the
"virtual capo" function to switch to either G11, C11, D11, etc. Or, I can switch between regular and baritone lap steel. While retaining your chosen tuning on the top 3 or 4 strings, you can also lower any of the bass strings a full octave!

Nah, this isn't a sales pitch for Line 6 products. You asked what I am trying to play. I have almost never played with any other instruments. So, I hope to be pretty much a lap steel "One-Man-Band". It may sound like a tall order, but this is exactly what I would like to do:

Take Patsy Cline's "Crazy" for instance. I would like to play somewhat of a chord melody of her voice in a middle register. The first two notes of her vocal are Cra----zy, then there is a 2 or 3 note descending bass run. I would like to play those
bass runs in the blank spaces while the vocal is "resting". Then, after some more vocal lines, I would like to play some of those octave-higher piano fills.... It is a very tall order, and maybe this is just a wish-fulfillment dream, but that is exactly
what I would like to do (in the time I have left). I'd like to play two or 3 "parts" but not at exactly the same time.

As for the precise type of music I want to learn on lap steel, using a combination of the above techniques while playing:

Release Me, Crazy, Sweet Dreams
Unchained Melody, Only You
House of the Rising Sun, Summertime
Sleepwalk, Blue Hawaii, Annie's Song

And Mike, I hear you about the slants being a necessary part of the entirety of the lap steel experience....

Danny Bates · Post by **Danny Bates** » 19 Dec 2008 2:21 am

Way to go Ray, I gotta try "Ray's E13th"

Robert Murphy said:

Try lo to hi ACEGBD

This is the tuning I use for my 6 string lap steels.

I use a standard C6 set of strings and tune it lower. Because the strings are so flexible, I can bend the 4th string up a half step for a G7th... or bend the 5th up a half step for an A7th. I usually just pick the three highest strings and the lowest string for a G with an A bass (A11) and use that instead of the usual dominant 7th chord.

I love this tuning for pop music. BTW, It is the same as strings 3 thru 8 on a standard C6 pedal neck with the 7th pedal pressed.

Other nice features of this tuning are that you have an inversion of the minor and major chords just 5 or 7 frets away and the major scales (and modes) are perfectly symetrical.

Ray Langley · Post by **Ray Langley** » 19 Dec 2008 4:10 am

Danny,

You and Robert are my heroes. Unfortunately, Robert lives about 3000 miles away from me.

YOU, live only about 160 miles from me. I am in Sacramento. Therefore, you MUST give me lessons for the rest of my life. What do you say? <chuckle>

Danny Bates · Post by **Danny Bates** » 19 Dec 2008 4:44 am

Ray, You just had a tuning named after you.. and now you want lessons from me?

You should contact a fellow forumite and Sacramento steel player by the name of Chris Ivey. In fact, Chris and his 3 wives and 14 children are coming over for peanut butter and jelly sandwiches on Christmas Eve, and you're more than welcome to join us. Unfortunately, you'll have to hitch a ride back up highway 99 because Chris and 'The Fam" are moving in and will probably never make it back up to Sacramento again... except during that barbershop quartet festival you guys have. Chris is a baritone singer in one of the barbershop quartets and never misses that gig. Here's a pic...

Robert Murphy · Post by **Robert Murphy** » 19 Dec 2008 5:32 am

Thanks for the atta boy Ray. Some of the best things in music and life are just simple.

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 19 Dec 2008 6:51 am

Well, I'm just going to offer up this advice. Forgive me if it is unwanted.

The truth is, if you're a guitarist trying to learn how to play steel guitar, you run into major roadblocks trying to decipher the fretboard logic. At first we get frustrated because we're looking for familiarity.

After a few years of this frustration (way back before I discovered the Steel Guitar Forum), I packed it in. I spent so much time trying to figure out how to tune the guitar that it was a waste. Years later when I picked it up again, I grew dismayed with the C6 tuning and gravitated toward playing Tricone in C#min7 and open E (tunings I could easily relate to).

While I enjoy playing in these tunings, I realize they are very limited. See, another thing I discovered is that it's not the tuning that makes the music. What it required was that I put the time in to really learn C6. I have to learn the grips, the slants--not everything is going to be on adjacent strings.

My point is that if you're trying to find an easy way to play steel guitar, then you might want to just take a few extra months to investigate the time proven tunings. There is really no magic shortcut. Again, I'll repeat--it's not the tuning that makes the music. You don't have to play Western Swing or Hawaiian to play C6. There are also other tunings, such as B11, which also have unique flavors. But I'm of the opinion that you're doing yourself a disservice by avoiding the old tunings. Until you've been playing steel for a while, you really won't know what you need in a tuning. It requires complete compartmentalization from what you already know on the guitar. It's not as simple as major and minor triads.

I've played pedal steel and nonpedal steel for a while now and after seeing the logic of the pedal steel ABC pedals, I was able to create a tuning for 6 string lap steel that enables me to very convincingly play pedal-steel like parts. I'm still wrapping my brain around it, but it was only after playing pedal steel and doing some transcribing that I was able to make some educated choices on this tuning.

Good luck and practice your tail off.

EDIT: Ray, you know, I just read the last part of your post about your goals and their relation to your health. I'm sorry to hear this. I figured with all your enthusiasm and zeal you were a young whippersnapper. I'm going to re-think my advice to you, but I will leave my original up there anyway for anyone else who might be interested in it. Still, gotta practice your tail off.

Robert Murphy · Post by **Robert Murphy** » 19 Dec 2008 1:45 pm

Mike Neer is exactly right. I have seen him play a he is a professional. I have only been playing steel for a couple years but I also play classical guitar and upright bass and I have studied music theory. With a little entry level A major and a year at Dobro G I came up with A11. My goal was to be able to play out with a small group as soon as possible, the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. With my limited skill and some knowledge of how music works I have a lot of fun doing backups and fills. Now I am being called to do more leads . A few tricks and some noodling work but I have a long way to go before I master harmoney and melody. I am 59 years old so I better go pratice!

The Steel Guitar Forum

An Ideal 6-String Lap Steel Tuning

An Ideal 6-String Lap Steel Tuning

RayzEZ_E13 Major Scales in E and C

No problem, Ray...