Pushing forward knee lever: design ideas?

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 13 Dec 2008 5:44 pm

In my need for ever more knee levers, I want to add a LKL pushing forward, between the hanging KL's. I've studied Jim Palenscar's design on his personal steel, and drawn up my own ideas, but if anyone has a really slick solution, I'd love to hear about it and not reinvent the wheel.

This is on my all-pull Mullen, pre-Royal Precision.

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 13 Dec 2008 6:10 pm

Right off the top of my head---is there any reason why the Fessenden design (possibly common to other guitars as well) for reversing levers (right-ward moving levers) where one tongue overlaps and engages another---but instead of being inline, they would be at right angles---wouldn't work?

I don't know if I'm painting a readable picture and I'll try again if necessary.

I've not seen Jim's lever but if I had to guess I would guess that his solution consists of elegant engineering.

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 14 Dec 2008 12:25 am

Jon, I guess I'd have to study a Fessie to understand your idea. Mullen's pushing right KL's use the common overlapping "tongues", but I don't know how to make that work.

Jim Palenscar in Oceanside uses the principle of a pivoting L-bracket: the kl pushes against one arm, it rotates on the center point, and that gets the motion of a rod pulling away from the changer that you need.

My working design is just an extension of that, with an improved amount of action. It also puts that linkage system above all the existing pull rods, making it easy to put it wherever you like, sort of "floating" above the normal guitar hardware.

I'll actually be working with Jim to craft this special knee lever, he's always up for challenges, especially from me!

Why not just add a 2nd LKL, you might ask? I've already done that! The 2nd RKL I had Jim install just isn't working out, it's too physically challenging and slow to use, at least for me. So a forward left KL is about my last option.

Scott Howard · Post by **Scott Howard** » 14 Dec 2008 1:20 am

I looked at a Mooney steel guitar that had them several years ago at the Chattanooga show. I am thinking they where built in West TN. but not sure.
Best I remember it was sort of like the Mullen knee lever with the actual knee lever turned 90 degrees.
However It has been several years and I am not 100% sure.

Dave Diehl · Post by **Dave Diehl** » 14 Dec 2008 3:17 am

I don't know the facts behind this but Jim Aycoth designed a push forward lever on the Emmons guitar back in the early 2000's. I never tried it but saw it used and it seemed to work fine.

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 15 Dec 2008 2:42 pm

Thanks for the info and leads, everyone.

Bruce Atkinson · Post by **Bruce Atkinson** » 16 Dec 2008 12:51 am

While I'm certainly not any size, shape or form of a qualified steel repair person, I can visualize an "L" shaped piece, with the pivot hole in the corner of the "L", to translate the forward/reverse action of such a lever to pull (push). I'm sure some engineer-type could figure out exactly where the pivot hole should be to ensure that the rod to the changer stays in a straight line without side-to-side movement.

After that, it should be more or less 'standard' rod linkage to the changer.

My $.02 worth....

A. J. Schobert · Post by **A. J. Schobert** » 16 Dec 2008 5:28 am

Your mullen is a d12 9 and 10, you actually have room for more?

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 16 Dec 2008 11:04 am

I have a special shoehorn for all my pedal steels, AJ! My previous MSA D-12 had 10+10.

Bruce, you're correct, the pivoting L is the key to making that "push" change directions.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 16 Dec 2008 11:21 am

I've toyed with the idea of a forward lever, initially mounted Rube Goldberg style (clamped to the front legs) to get the exact position before actually making something more permanent (mounted to the body), but there ain't a lot of room under there, so it has remained theoretical for now

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 16 Dec 2008 11:22 am

Jim Aycoth fitted a FKL to my current guitar in 2000, but, while it was good idea in principal (another option for the left knee), I couldn't make it work for me - the movement required was too difficult.

I do have a chronic lower-back problem, though, and I think that had a lot to do with it; the idea could work well for someone in better shape than I am!

A. J. Schobert · Post by **A. J. Schobert** » 16 Dec 2008 11:37 am

I don't know about a forward knee lever, help me out here, I would try to throw it first by placing my feet on the ground, just your heel on the ground won't let your knee to move forward so you would have to place your whole foot flat on the ground, well that is tough since you may accidently smash some pedals, to push your leg forward you would have to lean to the one side so far that it would appear that you are farting.

I wonder if you are outgrowing your D12 and need to upgrade to a D14 or D16?

Bruce Atkinson · Post by **Bruce Atkinson** » 16 Dec 2008 12:06 pm

I just had a light bulb go on!

How about an "LAL ankle lever"? It would eliminate the possibility of pressing a pedal at the same time, which may or may not be desirable.

Plan B: Tony Arrowood uses a wrist lever. See one of his YouTube clips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvamIt7x ... re=channel

Ron ! · Post by **Ron !** » 18 Dec 2008 9:58 pm

There is one thing I don't understand.Most players get by with 3x5 or 4x5.
Why all the knee levers?What is the gain in this?

To play every imaginary song a 3x5 is suffice to get it done.Actually...3x4 is enough.

Ron

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 18 Dec 2008 10:11 pm

Ron ! wrote:There is one thing I don't understand.Most players get by with 3x5 or 4x5.
Why all the knee levers?What is the gain in this?

To play every imaginary song a 3x5 is suffice to get it done.Actually...3x4 is enough.

Ron

Sorry Ron, I just had to catch you on the "imaginary song" thing.

Yes it's true that we can do enough to satisfy our musical ambitions with just 6 strings and no pedals if need be, but that's not really keeping true to our heritage as pedal steelers IMHO. Why not keep looking for new ways to pleasantly suprize our ears with combinations that you just can't get with the standard pulls?

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 9 Apr 2009 6:16 pm

To go along with Rick's comments, and to answer Ron:

I agree, 3+4 is all that's necessary, truly; but every additional KL or pedal just gives you more ways to "season" your playing, which I find appealing.

I'm still working on the pushing forward KL design, btw, just busy with other tasks at the moment. When it's done and working I'll report out to y'all.

Bill Ford · Post by **Bill Ford** » 9 Apr 2009 6:52 pm

RWL in action..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRzRhw4R ... re=channel

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 9 Apr 2009 8:32 pm

Do you have the complete Crawford Cluster (2 X LKL, 1 LKV, 2 X LKR) on your left knee?

Bill Dobkins · Post by **Bill Dobkins** » 9 Apr 2009 8:38 pm

John, Think of it this way. The forward lever would work the same as a regular lever, only at a right angle.
I hope this drawing makes sense. Parts A&B mounts to the steel body with brackets and the lever would pivot on part A with a stop behind it to stop the travel.

[/img]

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 9 Apr 2009 11:15 pm

Maybe it's too late and I'm too tired, Bill, I couldn't quite figure out how your nice sketch would work in action. I'm sure I just don't have my view oriented right or something!

(Bill Ford, thanks for the link showing that wrist lever in action. My pal Mike Perlowin has one similar on his MSA; I think his leverage is probably better, he just moves his wrist to the right to make a change; the video fellow had to lift his hand up to hit the end of that very tall wrist lever, which I don't think is optimal for speed and ergonomics).

So, for everyone's critique, here's my basic concept, showing how an L-bracket would pivot and change a forward-pushing action to a lateral tug on pull rods attached to the changer. Note, nothing is to correct scale. This is a view looking at the guitar in the case.

Question for all: think it matters whether the L-bracket PUSHES a crossrod which activates pull rods (1st drawing); or PULLS a linking rod which pulls the crossrod which activates pull rods (2nd drawing)? Does one way have better/easier action?

Thank you, smart mechanical engineering types!

Ulf Edlund · Post by **Ulf Edlund** » 10 Apr 2009 2:48 am

Bill Dobkins picture basicly shows a common reverse lever design with the lever itself turned 90 degrees.
Looks simple enough to be be a good idea. At least from a technical point of view. From a musical point however...
John, i think you should work on your need for more levers rather on the guitar itself.

Bill Ford · Post by **Bill Ford** » 10 Apr 2009 4:22 am

John,
Altho my drawing is very crude, perhaps you can understand what I'm trying to convey.You could turn part "A" 90 deg on a short shaft to do what you need,you may want to make part "B" wide enough to put a roller on "A" at the contact point,or maybe a rod linkage as the picture.

Or maybe use this configuration with the lever turned 90 deg.

Bill Dobkins · Post by **Bill Dobkins** » 10 Apr 2009 6:19 am

Here is another look from the side, but remember the lever and part A would have to be at a right angle(90 degrees) from part B....

Bill Ford · Post by **Bill Ford** » 10 Apr 2009 12:09 pm

Hey Bill,
I like your drawing better than mine.I've seen that setup on a guitar, but don't remember where.

Bill
Edited to say...it was on a Carter.

http://www.steelguitar.com/steelmap/map ... revcmp.htm

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 10 Apr 2009 12:50 pm

Ulf, just point me to the nearest "Knee Levers Anonymous" and I'll try the cure!