Hey everybody!
I'm new here and I've been searching around and reading posts and first off, I just want to say thanks for all the wonderful info on here.
I've been playing lap steel for about 10-12 years and have been on the pedals now for about 1 year. I'm making progress but some intonation problems with my steel are driving me crazy. I have it playing in tune when I stay in the first 10 frets but then I discover that in order to stay in tune with bends and chords I'm bending the bar this way and that.
Like a straight D to G change on 10th fret I have to bend the nose back flat for the chord to be in tune. And an A to D change on 15 I have to bend the nose sharp.
Is this common? I watch the steel dvd and other players and they seem to be having a much easier time than I am!!
I can't seem to find anyone local that teaches or helps.
Thanks everyone for any help.
Intonation Issues - Newbie
Moderator: Shoshanah Marohn
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Bobbo Byrnes
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Bill Moore
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I was going to post a link to the tuning charts on the Jeffran.com web page, but they don't appear to exist any more. It sounds like you are tuning all the strings on your guitar to "0" on your tuner. Some do that, but it does require you to make more noticeable adjustments with the bars as you play. Here are a few links for tuning posts, you can find many more by doing a search, good luck.
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Ronnie Boettcher
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Are you very sure your your tuning nuts are set correctly when you tune to the open strings, and your pedal and knee stops are correct. If there is a slight difference pushing a pedal, or knee, in the open position, is good, but when you play up the neck, the strings are shorter, with more sensitivity to the vibrations. ( I hope you can understand what I am trying to say. The shorter the string is, the more it is subject to error.)
Sho-Bud LDG, Martin D28, Ome trilogy 5 string banjo, Ibanez 4-string bass, dobro, fiddle, and a tubal cain. Life Member of AFM local 142
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Tim Kowalski
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Change your strings!
If your strings are old or defective, you will not be able to play in tune.
That is where you should start.
That is where you should start.
Bad wine is better than no wine.
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Bob Hoffnar
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Donny Hinson
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Bobbo Byrnes
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I am tuning to zero. I've gotten a few emails saying that's my first mistake! O.K. let's see - I understand temperament because I do tune pianos. But I was unaware that I would have to set up a temperament for the steel.
I am in Orange County, CA but travel all over LA and OC playing and what-not. If anyone is in this area - I would love to get together!
I've got a ShoBud Pro 1. New strings. I installed a George L's E66 pickup in it. The original was pretty microphonic.
I can find info on dvd's and stuff of how to play but I can't find anything on how to set it up to play it!
I am in Orange County, CA but travel all over LA and OC playing and what-not. If anyone is in this area - I would love to get together!
I've got a ShoBud Pro 1. New strings. I installed a George L's E66 pickup in it. The original was pretty microphonic.
I can find info on dvd's and stuff of how to play but I can't find anything on how to set it up to play it!
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Bobbo Byrnes
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Mitch Daniels
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Donny Hinson
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As I said, you're not going to either learn to play or tune this instrument from a DVD, you need first hand help.Bobbo Byrnes wrote:I am tuning to zero. I've gotten a few emails saying that's my first mistake! O.K. let's see - I understand temperament because I do tune pianos. But I was unaware that I would have to set up a temperament for the steel.
I can find info on dvd's and stuff of how to play but I can't find anything on how to set it up to play it!
Also, "tuning to zero" is meaningless. Most tuners are tempered, and unless you're getting precise frequency readouts, "zero" is an undefined. You need to know that different players can do an acceptable job of playing with different tuning methods, so tuning is not a "one size fits all" proposition. What offsets you use will depend on your particular guitar, as well as your particular playing technique. Resist those who tell you "just tune to this, and you'll be fine". Rather, use your ears, and tune it so it sounds good when you're playing. Nothing else matters.
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Bill Moore
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This is a quote from David Doggett, found at one of the links I posted above. Dave does a very good job of explaining how to tune a pedal steel, much better then I could. Resist those who tell you "just learn to play the thing"
From Dave's post:
You can use a guitar tuner to tune your E strings, and then tune the rest by ear to give good sounding chords. A method for doing this is given below. Using such chord harmonies, you will probably get close to what is known as Just Intonation (JI), which is the natural tuning system based on harmonics. Fixed pitch instruments such as pianos use a different system called Equal Temper (ET), and that is what a chromatic tuning meter will give you. There is a certain amount of dissonance built into the ET scale that helps pianos play in tune in all keys. You should try both tuning systems and see which you prefer. You can do a web search on Just Intonation or Equal Temper and learn more about these systems. Some chromatic tuners come with presets that approximate JI, and blank settings that allow the user to program in a customized tuning that can compensate for slight mechanical imperfections in each instrument. This stuff is nice to have, especially in a noisy environment where you cant hear to tune by ear; but you don't have to have such a tuner. Eventually it is good to get some kind of chromatic tuner, so you can play around with it and see what the differences are between what the meter says, and what your ears might prefer.
Mike, you are not necessarily putting your instrument "out of tune" when you depart from the straight up meter (440). Historically JI has been considered "in tune" and it is actually the meter that is intentionally "tempered" slightly out of tune. If you start with a rough tuning by the meter, then listen to the chords and adjust to get the pure beatless harmonies of JI, you are actually putting your guitar more in tune than the meter is. Meters are a compromise designed for fixed pitch instruments, but steel guitar is not a fixed pitch instrument.
Tuning E9 Pedal Steel by ear:
1. Take the root note of the tuning, E (strings 4 and 8 on E9), and tune that note alone to a tuning reference (tuning fork, electronic tuner, keyboard).
2. Now play an E chord on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, and tune all the strings so that chord sounds nice to your ears, without changing the Es on strings 4 and 8.
3. Play a B chord on strings 1, 2, 5, 7. String 5 is the reference. You have already tuned it in the previous step, so do not change it. Tune the other strings so they make a nice chord with string 5.
4. There are multiple ways to tune string 9, but the simplest is to play an E chord on strings 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, and tune string 9 so it sounds nice as the 7th of the E7 chord. Or, make a Bm chord with strings 7, 9, and 10. Tune sring 9 to sound good as the minor 3rd of that chord.
5. Press the A and B pedals to make an A chord on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10. Strings 4 and 8 are unaffected by those pedals, and have already been established as your reference strings, so do not change them. Tune the pedal stops on the other strings to make a nice sounding A chord with the unchanged strings 4 and 8.
6. Press pedals B and C to make an F#m chord on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. Tune the C pedal stops on strings 4 and 5 to sound nice with that chord, and do not change strings 3, 6, 7.
7. If you have an F lever (raises the Es ½ step), activate it with the A pedal to make a C# chord on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10. Tune the F lever stops on strings 4 and 8 to sound nice with that chord without changing any other strings or stops.
8. If you have an E lower lever (lowers the Es ½ step), activate it to make a G#m chord on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10. Tune the stops on strings 4 and 8 so that chord sounds nice, without changing any other strings or stops.
9. Any other pedal or lever stops are tuned by the above principles. Find the most common chord the change is part of, and tune the stops to that chord without changing any other strings or stops.
The F# on string 7 cannot be tuned perfectly with both the B chord of strings 1, 2, 5 and the F#m chord of B and C pedals. I tune my 7th string perfect for the B chord, which also makes it perfect for the E scale and E9 chord. For the BC pedal chord, I pull the E on string 8 up to F# on my C pedal, and tune it perfectly as the root of that F#m chord.
Good luck,
From Dave's post:
You can use a guitar tuner to tune your E strings, and then tune the rest by ear to give good sounding chords. A method for doing this is given below. Using such chord harmonies, you will probably get close to what is known as Just Intonation (JI), which is the natural tuning system based on harmonics. Fixed pitch instruments such as pianos use a different system called Equal Temper (ET), and that is what a chromatic tuning meter will give you. There is a certain amount of dissonance built into the ET scale that helps pianos play in tune in all keys. You should try both tuning systems and see which you prefer. You can do a web search on Just Intonation or Equal Temper and learn more about these systems. Some chromatic tuners come with presets that approximate JI, and blank settings that allow the user to program in a customized tuning that can compensate for slight mechanical imperfections in each instrument. This stuff is nice to have, especially in a noisy environment where you cant hear to tune by ear; but you don't have to have such a tuner. Eventually it is good to get some kind of chromatic tuner, so you can play around with it and see what the differences are between what the meter says, and what your ears might prefer.
Mike, you are not necessarily putting your instrument "out of tune" when you depart from the straight up meter (440). Historically JI has been considered "in tune" and it is actually the meter that is intentionally "tempered" slightly out of tune. If you start with a rough tuning by the meter, then listen to the chords and adjust to get the pure beatless harmonies of JI, you are actually putting your guitar more in tune than the meter is. Meters are a compromise designed for fixed pitch instruments, but steel guitar is not a fixed pitch instrument.
Tuning E9 Pedal Steel by ear:
1. Take the root note of the tuning, E (strings 4 and 8 on E9), and tune that note alone to a tuning reference (tuning fork, electronic tuner, keyboard).
2. Now play an E chord on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, and tune all the strings so that chord sounds nice to your ears, without changing the Es on strings 4 and 8.
3. Play a B chord on strings 1, 2, 5, 7. String 5 is the reference. You have already tuned it in the previous step, so do not change it. Tune the other strings so they make a nice chord with string 5.
4. There are multiple ways to tune string 9, but the simplest is to play an E chord on strings 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, and tune string 9 so it sounds nice as the 7th of the E7 chord. Or, make a Bm chord with strings 7, 9, and 10. Tune sring 9 to sound good as the minor 3rd of that chord.
5. Press the A and B pedals to make an A chord on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10. Strings 4 and 8 are unaffected by those pedals, and have already been established as your reference strings, so do not change them. Tune the pedal stops on the other strings to make a nice sounding A chord with the unchanged strings 4 and 8.
6. Press pedals B and C to make an F#m chord on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. Tune the C pedal stops on strings 4 and 5 to sound nice with that chord, and do not change strings 3, 6, 7.
7. If you have an F lever (raises the Es ½ step), activate it with the A pedal to make a C# chord on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10. Tune the F lever stops on strings 4 and 8 to sound nice with that chord without changing any other strings or stops.
8. If you have an E lower lever (lowers the Es ½ step), activate it to make a G#m chord on strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10. Tune the stops on strings 4 and 8 so that chord sounds nice, without changing any other strings or stops.
9. Any other pedal or lever stops are tuned by the above principles. Find the most common chord the change is part of, and tune the stops to that chord without changing any other strings or stops.
The F# on string 7 cannot be tuned perfectly with both the B chord of strings 1, 2, 5 and the F#m chord of B and C pedals. I tune my 7th string perfect for the B chord, which also makes it perfect for the E scale and E9 chord. For the BC pedal chord, I pull the E on string 8 up to F# on my C pedal, and tune it perfectly as the root of that F#m chord.
Good luck,
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Steve English
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Larry Bell
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Since you are a piano tuner, you understand the temperament game. Here's my take on it in a nutshell -- I've tried just about everything from ET to JI and I've found that the closer you get to ET the better your A+F C#Maj chord -- open on strings 3,4,5,6,8,10 will sound. It's mostly a matter of tempering the thirds -- you'll note I said thirdS. You have four major chord positions. Open they are E(no pedals) A(A+B pedals) B(E to D# lever) and C#(A+F position). I tune those slightly flat -- not flat enough to be out of tune but flat enough to be IN TUNE as close as possible with all four major triads.
That's the challenge. Play with it. Whatever sounds best to you will work fine. I tune my G# about 4cents flat, C# about 6-8cents flat, D# about 2cents flat, and F about 8-12cents flat. You may want to start with that. I also tune Es and Bs about 4cents sharp. It helps minimize the beats. You'll figure it out. I second the motion to go see Jim P. He's a great guy and a sharp cookie.
That's the challenge. Play with it. Whatever sounds best to you will work fine. I tune my G# about 4cents flat, C# about 6-8cents flat, D# about 2cents flat, and F about 8-12cents flat. You may want to start with that. I also tune Es and Bs about 4cents sharp. It helps minimize the beats. You'll figure it out. I second the motion to go see Jim P. He's a great guy and a sharp cookie.
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12
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Tucker Jackson
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As far as I'm concerned, Larry Bell is The Man when it comes to solving the tuning riddle. His tuning method helped me a lot:
http://www.larrybell.org/id29.htm
Larry's theory makes sense: Get as close to ET as possible... until you start having trouble with beats. His so-called "tampered tuning" is a compromise between ET and JI -- and the offsets are right about in the middle between the two systems. Best of both worlds, and not too far from either extreme.
Any pitch problems I have are "pilot error" with bar placement... rather than the guitar not cooperating because of the way it's tuned. But that's a whole other topic.
http://www.larrybell.org/id29.htm
Larry's theory makes sense: Get as close to ET as possible... until you start having trouble with beats. His so-called "tampered tuning" is a compromise between ET and JI -- and the offsets are right about in the middle between the two systems. Best of both worlds, and not too far from either extreme.
Any pitch problems I have are "pilot error" with bar placement... rather than the guitar not cooperating because of the way it's tuned. But that's a whole other topic.
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Kyle Everson
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First make sure all your intervals are in tune for the various pedal positions. The best way to do this is by ear, or use a tuner with a trusted tuning chart (aka Newman settings). You can also use a Peterson tuner with the presets.
After you're sure that the intervals are in tune properly, make sure you apply even bar pressure. Some guitars are more sensitive to this than others. If you sound in tune in the lower register but not when you go higher on the fretboard, it may be the amount of bar pressure you are applying to the strings.
After you're sure that the intervals are in tune properly, make sure you apply even bar pressure. Some guitars are more sensitive to this than others. If you sound in tune in the lower register but not when you go higher on the fretboard, it may be the amount of bar pressure you are applying to the strings.
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Bobbo Byrnes
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This has been so helpful. I think I've learned more about tuning my steel today than I have in the past year of playing it!
I have a Peterson Tuner and didn't even realize that it had a preset in it. I'm going to start there. And I've been printing out the other methods. That Larry Bell website has a lot of good info too.
Thanks!
I have a Peterson Tuner and didn't even realize that it had a preset in it. I'm going to start there. And I've been printing out the other methods. That Larry Bell website has a lot of good info too.
Thanks!
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Lee Baucum
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Tucker - I don't think Larry coined the phrase "tampered tuning". Read my post here:
Click Here
and further clarification as to where I got the phrase:
Click Here
Lee
Click Here
and further clarification as to where I got the phrase:
Click Here
Lee
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Bobbo Byrnes
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- Location: California, USA
One of the best things about this - to me anyway - is that I had no idea that there was this much debate about how to tune a pedal steel!
If I've learned nothing else today - I've learned that there is no one true way that works for everyone. There's a lot of places to start from but then it's find what works best for you from there.
Wow!!
That $5 I spent on membership has already paid it's way back to me in info today!
Next time I'll ask if you need to use fingerpicks or can you just use your fingers! I'll bet there's a lot of discussion about that too.
If I've learned nothing else today - I've learned that there is no one true way that works for everyone. There's a lot of places to start from but then it's find what works best for you from there.
Wow!!
That $5 I spent on membership has already paid it's way back to me in info today!
Next time I'll ask if you need to use fingerpicks or can you just use your fingers! I'll bet there's a lot of discussion about that too.
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Tucker Jackson
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Thanks, Lee. I didn't know the history of "tampered tuning." It's a good descriptive term.Lee Baucum wrote:Tucker - I don't think Larry coined the phrase "tampered tuning". Read my post here:
Click Here
and further clarification as to where I got the phrase:
Click Here
Lee
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Donny Hinson
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"Wow" indeed! And so it is with every facet of this instrument, and of life in general.Bobbo Byrnes wrote:If I've learned nothing else today - I've learned that there is no one true way that works for everyone. There's a lot of places to start from but then it's find what works best for you from there.
Wow!!
