The Novel Shovel

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 10 Nov 2008 5:35 pm

Robert,

I must admit that there is nothing sketchy about your explanations regarding the differences in pedal locations. I'll have to reread the articles to pinpoint the discrepancies. There are some major differences involved in statements made involving knee levers. I'll open that part to scrutiny in the morning. I'll try to narrow it down to positive advantages, depending on pedal locations. I agree that Bill M's statement appeared a bit far-fetched.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 11 Nov 2008 9:40 am

Robert,

My telephone lines messed up my computer this morning. After lunch I want to go back and look at the knee lever comments that were made in relation to pedals. There was something said that it mattered very little as to where they were located. Of course I don't agree. I couldn't ever agree to that statement.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 11 Nov 2008 11:13 am

Well Bill, I took the time to copy and paste all my replies to that thread. I'm looking forward to you tearing me up on any of these comments.

#1. It's the way the pedals are set up. An Emmons setup has the raises on strings 5 & 10 on the first pedal and the Raises on strings 4 & 5 on the third pedal. The Day setup is reversed, that is the raises on strings 5 & 10 are on pedal 3 and the raises on strings 4 & 5 are on pedal 1. The second pedal raising the G#'s to A is on the second pedal in both setups.

#2. Right. It has nothing to do with the brand of guitar. When Emmons and Day split the infamous Bud Issacs "Slowly" pedal, Emmons guitars didn't even exist yet.

#3. Thanks David. I meant to go back and put the letter designations in, but at my age, old-timers disease took over and I forgot.

#4. True on the knee levers if the ones that affect the E strings are on the left knee. Many have these knee levers in other positions. I don't normally associate the knee levers as part of the Day or Emmons setup, because they can be placed in different positions, legs, etc. The pedal positions are the main difference.

#5. To expand on my last post, if you look in the copedents link on Bob's forum, Emmons has the E raises and lowers on his left knee. Jimmy Day has his E to F lever on LEFT KNEE LEFT (someone forget to tell him that it should be on Left KNee Right - but he played great anyway) and doesn't lower string 4 and the 8th string lower in on Right Knee Right.

Since I play with the pedals setup as C-B-A (Day style) but have my E raises and lowers on my left knee (not as Day has them), does this mean I don't play the Day setup?

#6. Bill Mayville wrote:
Quote:
There is some reason why anyone would go to a Day setup.I don't know what it is. It takes much longer to learn and play with the Day setup.I don't care what anyone says.

My reply to #6. That is the biggest pile of BS I have ever read. If you have been helping students for 20 years and you see this as being a direct result of their playing the Day setup, you either have poor students or are a poor teacher.

While I still agree with my remark to Mr. Mayville, I could have worded it better. My sincere apologies go out to him.

Link to the post Mr. Hankey is referring to.

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... highlight=[/i][/b]

Bring it on Billy Boy.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 11 Nov 2008 11:57 am

Richard,

Thanks for the excellent job of producing your quotes so that they are enjoyable to read. Number 4 quote is the most vulnerable to disagreement. The Jimmy Day setup is still very popular with all age groups, although manufacturers are pushing the Emmons setup. This is an assumption on my part after checking a mixture of makes and models. There is a compatibility issue left hanging in your #4 statement. IMO, the 4th and 8th raises and lowers should be placed over the A&B pedals. The half tone lowers moving to the left, and the half tone raises to the right independent of the right knee. Your reply allows for a possible acceptable setup on the right knee. Other than those critical locations, a player may do as he pleases with the right knee. Many players are just beginning to utilize the LKV knee lever if they have one in place. I really appreciate the civility that you have shown. Thanks..

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 11 Nov 2008 12:07 pm

I agree with Richard Sinkler. Just having the pedals setup C B A has been referred to so often as setup DAY that it is a given.
To refer to players who plays the Day as slow learners is an uneducated opinion and I don’t think anybody would buy that.
Sometimes folks argue about definitions because they don’t know enough about PSG to argue about it.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 11 Nov 2008 1:21 pm

What I find most interesting about the 'Novel Shovel' is how the pronunciation of the 'o' changes between those two words, from 'ah' to 'uh', even though both 'o's are followed by 'vel'. Isn't that peculiar?

Pete Finney · Post by **Pete Finney** » 11 Nov 2008 6:15 pm

Come on, Jim; this is a shovel thread, not an English pronunciation thread, let's try to stay on topic!

I think we would all probably be better off if we spent more time at our shovels and less time on the forum...

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 11 Nov 2008 9:27 pm

Pete Finney wrote:Come on, Jim; this is a shovel thread, not an English pronunciation thread, let's try to stay on topic!

Now, hold on a minute there, Sapphire! Is this is, or is this ain't a thread about "Novel Shovel"s? And, is I addressing myself to the subject of "Novel Shovel"s, or is I ain't?

I thought so... Thankyuverramuch.

Signed,
The Kingfisher

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 12 Nov 2008 4:57 am

Pete,

I would think that shovels are the furthest things on the minds of those who have secured a position playing steel for leading ladies. Every spare moment would be concentrated on the business at hand. Other steel players are anxious to become fill-ins, if ever there is an opening. Many have various capabilities unrelated to hard labor.. and more of promoting their own finesse, particularly when their isn't a lack of inspiration. The best that existing popular steelies can hope for is the acceptance within certain groups. I'm finding that the contraptions built to smuggle rock'n'roll oriented musical flavors into the country sounds, is gaining new ground amongst leading lady vocalists. Roving steel guitarists who refuse to "stay put" are not the least of concerns in the competitive hire for pay band situations. Most bandleaders are devoted to anything that will improve their total sound. If you haven't already done so, learning to respect what might happen after an unknown steelie sets up his steel, will come about in time.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 12 Nov 2008 5:36 am

My point exactly.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 12 Nov 2008 5:55 am

The Jimmy Day setup is still very popular with all age groups...

Every survey I've seen says that less than 20% of all players use the "Day" setup. Since there are only two commonly-used E9th pedal setups, and since at least 80% use the "Emmons" setup, I think it would be more correct to call the "Day" setup the least popular (as opposed to "very" popular).

Pete Finney · Post by **Pete Finney** » 12 Nov 2008 5:55 am

Bill,

Thanks for taking the time to set me straight on the ins and outs of playing steel for a living, a topic you make it painfully obvious you have no actual experience with. But you're not living up to your own standards I'm afraid...

If you haven't already done so, learning to respect what might happen after an unknown steelie sets up his steel, will come about in time.

I know from past experience that you're capable of being even more arrogant and condescending than that, is that really the best you can do?

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 12 Nov 2008 6:03 am

Pete,

No, I have in reserve (I hope) one of those surprises that will hopefully set the record straight for those who get too big for their pants. It is quite disrupting to runaway egos.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 12 Nov 2008 6:18 am

Donny,

A trouper of wisdom, such as you, must surely realize that your respected input is "skating" on thin ice with those figures. I'm inclined to believe that it is much more difficult to state figures from hearsay. One of the most dedicated steel guitarist the world over (Buzz Evans) supports the Jimmy Day concepts of proper pedal arrangements. I would much rather depend on his insight than random surveys.

Ron Patrick · Post by **Ron Patrick** » 12 Nov 2008 7:57 am

It's amazing that I have been a member of this forum for several years and I cannot understand one thing Bill Hankey writes in this forum . Am I stupid or are there a code I need to learn to understand what he is talking about. I'm sure he is a smart fellow but he way too far out for me to understand . Ron Patrick

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 12 Nov 2008 8:01 am

Stu,

My flight is taking flak, and I've spotted an echelon of fighters spitting flame at 5000'. I must try to make it to friendly territory. I was warned by an attractive female years ago; "Don't mess with the best, because the best "don't" mess." She was also fond of saying; "Keep trucking". Advice that can be used today in this world of deep seated opinions, and assumptions.

Stu Schulman · Post by **Stu Schulman** » 12 Nov 2008 10:48 am

Bill,I take flak pretty well my self,The shovel incident was an accident that I'm not really proud of,It's my only shovel story...The good thing that came out of it was he stopped picking on me.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 12 Nov 2008 11:12 am

Stu,

Believe it or not, abuse stories have happy endings, when wives learn that shovels have more hidden useableness than removing snow from walkways.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 12 Nov 2008 12:33 pm

like shoveling 'nuts' into the dumpster!

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 12 Nov 2008 1:08 pm

Chris,

Mediocre steelies usually accredit those who are rated top of the line pickers, by uttering compliments galore. They habitually jump at the chance to push their way into a dispute. It's the single most identifying characteristic of someone who has hopes of still reaching the highest level of steel guitar achievement. The problem has grown with the influx of mediocrity tossing pennies into the wishing well. Grumblers leave little doubts of those who spend the most time around dumpsters. One of the hazards of outspokenness here on the forum, is running the risk of touching sensitive nerve endings of those who openly admit that shovels do not fit their hands. Take it from a keen observer of who is nowhere in sight after a big storm. The steel will have to wait, if the player realizes that yard will not clear itself. Moreover, when a fender bender occurs, neighbors flock around by the dozens. I2 inches of snow will make the same area appear as a ghost town. It's pretty obvious when you consider the influencing aspects of the common shovel. More than anything else, it proves that we live in a pick and choose society.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 12 Nov 2008 2:39 pm

Bill Hankey wrote:Donny,

A trouper of wisdom, such as you, must surely realize that your respected input is "skating" on thin ice with those figures. I'm inclined to believe that it is much more difficult to state figures from hearsay. One of the most dedicated steel guitarist the world over (Buzz Evans) supports the Jimmy Day concepts of proper pedal arrangements. I would much rather depend on his insight than random surveys.

Bill, here's the last survey taken right here on the subject -

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... light=poll

Now, you can reject it if you like...but I'll believe it's pretty representative until you can come up with something just a little more substantial.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 12 Nov 2008 3:55 pm

Donny,

It would be next to impossible to conduct an accurate survey of this type. Many players are not aware of such polls. Even if they learned at some point that volunteering information would most likely change the polling status of the scores of players, chances are, they may disregard the request. I find a need to beat on doors, to get others to act according to another's wishes. You hear much more street talk involving musicians who like to hear Buddy Emmons' name enunciated. Buddy Charleton who is a fantastic player is mentioned less frequently. Players who were swinging in the 50's and 60's, mentioned Jimmy Day with regularity. It could have been a 50/50 proposition when he was a hot topic in musical circles. A quick check was made to ascertain members of the opry band's steel players using the Day setup. The drift away from that which may be superior, has much to do with hearsay.

Colm Chomicky · Post by **Colm Chomicky** » 12 Nov 2008 4:34 pm

Bill Hankey wrote:

The steel will have to wait, if the player realizes that yard will not clear itself.

That's exactly what happened to me these last few weekends. Yard work. I have planted a lot of Canna plants and it was time to move them indoors for the winter -lest they will die. This involved at least three Saturdays of shovelling that interferred with my steel picking. Unfortunately during my shovelling there was an unwelcome discovery. The neighbor had started a bamboo grove and numerous tough and ropy roots and shoots (that looked like punji sticks) had invaded the flower beds from 10's of feet away. What should have been casual shoveling turned into a siege of digging, chopping, and trenching to remove these invasive roots back to their source at the property line. All this was augmented with chemical warfare (undiluted brush-be-gone concentrate) directly applied to roots and shoot stalks at the perimeter trench. But it is going to be a war of several seasons. No, bamboo is not a tropical plant that dies when it freezes, it is very hardy and extremely difficult to eliminate. Also the Canna I refer to are not the smoking kind so no wisecracks.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 12 Nov 2008 5:46 pm

Colm,

Poison Ivy is another stubborn plant to clear away. Thomas Edison's bamboo plants were still growing at his winter home in Fort Myers, Florida. Edison passed in 1931, which proves that bamboo is indeed a hardy plant. It is not known if the great inventor ever became inquisitive with stringed instruments. It wouldn't surprise me!

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 12 Nov 2008 5:56 pm

bill..per your last response to me, my question would be, 'huh,..?' or rather, what's your point, what are you trying to say? i'm a fairly well read and spoken person, but your manner of speaking (?) loses me quickly into the first or second sentence usually. no offense, but after years of this and peoples responses to you, it seems that this must be your manner of attention getting, so it doesn't fit that you should get offended by anyone's responses. you seem to obviously be pursuing 'touching sensitive nerve endings' in order to get feedback, somehow gratifying what i perceive as some insecurity in your make-up. no offense meant, your mileage may vary, in my humble opinion and just my 2 cents worth. with all due respect, friend and fellow steeler.