Opinion,What will make YOU better?

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 30 Oct 2008 11:00 am

Chris,
If it works for you, go for it !!

The information that I imparted was covered by my usual disclaimer (in my opinion), and I would be interested to see if anyone else has tried my methods, and what the outcome was.

Maybe I'm like that young soldier at his passing-out parade, watched by his parents.

"Ooh look, they're all out of step except our Billy"

Billy Murdoch · Post by **Billy Murdoch** » 30 Oct 2008 11:10 am

Ken,
I recall a conversation I had with You in Dallas this year when We were observing players trying out the Carter guitars on show.
You said it was easy to tell the players who had not been long at the steel.They were picking the strings too lightly and the volume pedal was being pumped all the time.
Great advice.
I now pick My strings harder and I got over pumping the pedal a long time ago.
Best regards
Billy

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 30 Oct 2008 11:34 am

Hi Billy
I have watched the great players very closely over the years. Lloyd picks very boldly, Randy Beavers and Tommy White even more so. I remember many years ago reading an article by Weldon Myrick in a UK magazine where he stated that he wished he could play as boldly as Lloyd. I sat right in front of Paul Franklin in Nashville earlier this year, and he looked as though he was trying to rip the strings off at some stages. But the sustain he got was amazing.

Confidence and good technique is as important as the equipment is in the overall equation of good tone. Volume pedal pumpers and string ticklers will never have great tone.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 30 Oct 2008 1:46 pm

i wasn't putting you down richard..just noting that we may approach things differently. from clips i've heard of your playing, you play very well!

as to picking strength, i've noticed that my tone is best when i am relaxed but very strong in my pick attack and string grabbing.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 30 Oct 2008 1:51 pm

repetition

repetition

repetition

repetition

I think I am repeating myself

what is repetition ?
practicing the same things over and over and over

and over
and over
and over
and over
with repetition

Practice the exact same thing for 5 min a day for 30 days..

you may not be good at anything else but you will excellent at that one thing !

tp

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 30 Oct 2008 2:11 pm

Opinion,What will make YOU better? First thing after you get all your needed gear.
Learn Advanced Pick Blocking.

Don Brown, Sr. · Post by **Don Brown, Sr.** » 30 Oct 2008 2:19 pm

Billy, if you're playing with a group of folks who are playing out of tune, etc.. My opinion is that you won't improve much on your playing. Get with even fewer players (if you can't find a group that plays in tune).

I'd much rather be playing with simply one good rhythm player, who plays in tune, than I would to be playing with a five piece where any "ONE" instrument plays out of tune.

Also, for whatever it's worth, I've always wanted my Volume pedal to be completely shut off when it's up. However, I don't want any of it to be delayed in starting to increase volume, the very moment it starts downward either. It therefore, has to be ajusted precisely on the string, or it will be one or the other. I usually only use about half of it while playing, unless I want more sustain, as the sound is fading, the pedal goes down more and more to help keep it steady.

And yes! By all means, "Play with Authority" Especially, in kicking a song off, depending of course, on the circumstances and flavor of the song.

A good ear is a "must," (it's one of the most over looked or under mentioned, yet the most important of anything else I can think of) especially when playing a pedal steel, to develope. "I don't think it's mentioned near enough when folks ask what they can do to improve their playing." And you won't ever develope it, if you're playing with out of tune groups. It's simply impossible to play well, and sound great, if you're hearing isn't what it should be, or up to par..

Huhhhh!!!!!!!!!! What did I just say??????

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 30 Oct 2008 2:34 pm

Chris,
Thanks for the comments on my playing

In view of the general trend of the players who have contributed to this thread, I won't delete anything that I have posted (as that would cause confusion), but I will add this disclaimer:

It appears that everything that I have suggested for achieving a good tone is actually the opposite of what is required, so please take no heed of my utterings, as I don't want to be the instigator of any bad habits.

Don Brown, Sr. · Post by **Don Brown, Sr.** » 30 Oct 2008 3:12 pm

Richard, I believe your opinion, of how you find you like your equipment, is just as important as anything else posted here. It's whatever works for that particular person.

Don't ever get offended by anyone or anything that's said. We each have many different opinions.

Besides all that, I'm from NJ, and don't you know us folks can't really play anyway...

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 30 Oct 2008 3:14 pm

Richard, I also don't follow any of your suggestions (except the one about twisting the knobs). But, if those techniques work for you - go for it! The destination is what's important, not how you get there.

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 30 Oct 2008 6:41 pm

"Theresa got it right on the money...practice makes perfect."

Close but not quite. Let's try "Perfect Practice makes for perfect playing". Anyone ever tell you, "That sounds good but the song is not right, or you're playing the wrong melody." That is what we're trying to do right?; play a song or do the proper fill, etc.

Too, the versatility of the PSG lends itself to so many variations of where you're gonna' play the song. One should practice all the different aspects of where to place the bar, or what pedals are going to be used, etc.

Julian Tharpe was a stickler for bar placement and pedal pushing. He would make us learn a song in a Tonic C for instance, and make us immediately transpose it to another key. Then he would have us try all the different bar and pedal combinations we could think of.

Afterward the 3rd degree would come. "Which of the bar placements and pedal combinations sounds the best? Can you make the song sound better by using this combination?" and he would immediately point out another possibility. Very invigorating I might add.

But thinking ahead of the song and what combinations you're gonna' use is, I think, one of the most important aspects of good solid PSG technique. Whatta' ya think?

Pat Comeau · Post by **Pat Comeau** » 30 Oct 2008 7:13 pm

Richard said=

Volume pedal, never have it set so that all the signal is totally shut off when the pedal is physically backed right off, that's fatal for tone (in my opinion)

I have my volume pedal set the same as Richard and i find that it works better for me not to have the volume shut off completly...i set it so you can barly hear the sound when it's in the off position.

Ken said=

I sat right in front of Paul Franklin in Nashville earlier this year, and he looked as though he was trying to rip the strings off at some stages. But the sustain he got was amazing.

You need a good compressor or limiter of some kind to have a good sound and sustain when you pluck hard on your strings.

Almost all big professional live shows or recording...mixing or mastering goes through some kind of compressing or limiting .

Billy Murdoch · Post by **Billy Murdoch** » 31 Oct 2008 1:13 am

Richard,
Your contribution to this, and other posts is very worthwhile and I for one always benefit from Your advice.
Everyone who posts on the Forum has been great in imparting their knowledge and experience,just try and get a (loud)six string lead player to show You one of their licks or tricks!!Different world.
Many thanks to everyone who has posted,the advice is priceless.
Billy

Charley Wilder · Post by **Charley Wilder** » 31 Oct 2008 6:14 am

Practice! And playing with GOOD people ON STAGE! The basement jamming is fine but nothing replaces playing with a group in front of people in my opinion. You'll get better faster than just jamming. Effects are fine but they are too often a crutch. If you can't play well straight in you can't play well through effects. In fact when you are a beginner they are too often, a needless distraction.

Don Brown, Sr. · Post by **Don Brown, Sr.** » 31 Oct 2008 7:57 am

Fred, "You always agree with the ladies."

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 31 Oct 2008 11:16 am

You need a good compressor or limiter of some kind to have a good sound and sustain when you pluck hard on your strings.

With utmost respect, that's just not true. Too much classic stuff was played even before compressors were invented to consider a statement like this valid. Just because you can't sound good without a ___________ (fill in whatever "gizmo" you choose) doesn't mean no one else can.

Joe Stoebenau · Post by **Joe Stoebenau** » 31 Oct 2008 12:44 pm

Spending less time reading the Forum and more time playing the guitar!
Joe

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 31 Oct 2008 1:04 pm

I think Don Brown raises a good point. Accurate intonation is a key component in the quest for good tone. Out of tune notes will never sound good. I think we've contributed to the "what makes good tone" bit on the forum over the years, but technique, delivery, intonation, good equipment and strings are all critical. I'm not one of the supporters of the 'all in the hands' point of view, as I think that a great sounding guitar and amp are the foundation for achieving good tone. However, technique is also fundamental too.

Pat Comeau · Post by **Pat Comeau** » 31 Oct 2008 4:55 pm

Donny Hinson wrote:
You need a good compressor or limiter of some kind to have a good sound and sustain when you pluck hard on your strings.
With utmost respect, that's just not true. Too much classic stuff was played even before compressors were invented to consider a statement like this valid. Just because you can't sound good without a ___________ (fill in whatever "gizmo" you choose) doesn't mean no one else can.

you'd be surprise to see what professional players like Buddy Emmons 'Lloyd Green' Paul Franklin and Tommy White ect... have in their effects rack, and also the sound and technic of playing steel has changed and improved alot since the 50's and 60's, same goes for electric guitar, another example is that it is impossible to get Brad Paisely or Vince gill or Brent Mason sound without some sort of compressor or limiter, you can't compare the old days music with today's music, it would be like comparing Don Rich guitar sound and technic who played with Buck Owens... with Brent Mason or Brad Paisely sounds and technics .

It would be nice to know if any of you ever had the chance to see those pro steel players up close and had a chance to look at their rack effects.

Pat.

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 31 Oct 2008 9:11 pm

"It would be nice to know if any of you ever had the chance to see those pro steel players up close and had a chance to look at their rack effects."

Pat C. right about here it's probably time for you to start ducking.

phred

Billy Murdoch · Post by **Billy Murdoch** » 1 Nov 2008 1:02 am

I have had the pleasure of visiting the Dallas show for the past few Years and on the first,and subsequent occasions I was totally amazed at the Guys in the various rooms who were hooked from the Steel to the vol pedal to the amp,using only a little amp reverb.They proved to Me that there is no need for bells and whistles to make You sound good.
Billy

Micky Byrne · Post by **Micky Byrne** » 1 Nov 2008 3:53 am

Billy, apart from daily practice... practice and more practice....."attack" those strings. Saw Emmons in the the tuning up room when he was over here at Gerry Hogan's convention, he was playing along to the steelers who were on stage, I thought his strings were going to snap any second the way he was digging into them....he even appeared to have little scars on where his picks were.Food for thought there mate, you can always back off on your volume pedal, but still attack those strings. Same applies to the great 6 string guitar players...see how they "Attack"

Micky Byrne England

www.micky-byrne.co.uk

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 1 Nov 2008 5:12 am

Pat Comeau seems to think (Judging by his posts and CONSTANT reference to Compressors/Limiters)) that they are the answer. Pat I totally disagree.

If you hear compression on a recording it's almost certainly been put there post performance.. The player's dynamics whilst playing are in the players own hands "so to speak" as outlined below.

The LAST thing a budding player would need is something that can increase sustain and consequently the related background noise ARTIFICIALLY.
PERCEIVED Sustain comes from JUDICIOUS use of the right and left hands in conjunction with the volume pedal and of course new or nearly new strings.

The major controller of dynamics is NOT compression or limiting, but the right hand.

As for the original question, Billy, play more with other people as much as you can.... Have you wondered why the top players are so good, one of the reasons is that they are constantly diversifying stylistically as the play varied sessions, and have to remember the stylistic nuances they have applied to each performers records.
Practising MEMORY is quite relative to this discussion.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 1 Nov 2008 6:07 am

Pat Comeau wrote:...you'd be surprise to see what professional players like Buddy Emmons 'Lloyd Green' Paul Franklin and Tommy White ect... have in their effects rack...

Pat, how many great steelers have you actually watched in-person? I've seen all those players (except Paul) up-close and in-person playing without an effects rack. If you ever go to the I.S.G.C., you'll find a lot of great players that don't use fancy racks full of effects. Most that do use them very sparingly.

...another example is that it is impossible to get Brad Paisely or Vince gill or Brent Mason sound without some sort of compressor or limiter...

Well, it may be impossible for you, but I assure you that many other straight guitar players can. Those fancy compressors that some players are addicted to were invented so that players could get tube-amp type compression and sounds with a modern solid-state amp.

...you can't compare the old days music with today's music, it would be like comparing Don Rich guitar sound and technic who played with Buck Owens... with Brent Mason or Brad Paisely sounds and technics.

Do you think the difference between Don Rich and players like Brent and Brad is their amp and effects???

Man, have you got a lot to learn!

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 1 Nov 2008 6:32 am

Donny, I think that you should delete your last statement:

"Man, have you got a lot to learn!"

It smacks of arrogance, is somewhat insulting, and really not in keeping with forum rules and decorem.