New take on Universal Steel guitar by Excel...........

[Jerry Hayes]

While at Scotty's Convention this year I walked by the Excel booth at the end of the hallway and was watching a guy play one of their S-12 Universals. It had a locking device on the top of the guitar near the tuning keys which I though must lock it into B6th.........Wrong!

It locked the guitar into "C6th". I couldn't believe it! Mitsuo Fuji (I think that's his name) the manufacturer of Excel steels had perfected a mechanism that locked the guitar from E9th into C6th instead of B6th. The B6th tuning was available with the lever that lowered the E strings and I assume the normal pedals associated with that part of the tuning worked as usual.

The interesting part was that if you were used to playing C6th with the normal chord and scale positions associated with that tuning all you had to do was engage that locking device and it was all there for you to use with no re-learning needed!

If anyone out there is interested in going the U-12 route and don't want to lose your C6th positions, you might want to check this thing out, it's really cool to say the least. There might be more info on their website............JH in Va.

[chris ivey]

inneresting...you'd think we'd have heard this before, if true.

[Lee Baucum]

This was discussed here on the Forum not too long ago. I don't remember who brought it up. I'll see if I can find it.

[Lee Baucum]

Okay, so it was a year ago.


Click Here

[Doug Earnest]

I glanced under the Excel guitars at the convention..more like beautifully made surgical equipment than steel guitars! I was quite impressed with the craftsmanship.

[Roger Shackelton]

Bill Stafford should be able to shed some light on this subject.


Roger

[Larry Bell]

There are two distinct ways of looking at the U12 (usually E9/B6 or Bb6/Eb9)

* As a 'convertible' tuning -- to get the 'other' tuning you flip a lever w/ or w/o a lock. Players who subscribe to this tuning often prefer to have the lock and some even have dedicated B6 levers over the pedals that give the C6 changes.

* As 'one big tuning' -- everything is fair game. You have all those changes available at all times. C6 becomes a position of E9 and E9 becomes a position of C6. These players USUALLY don't prefer the lock, since there really isn't a 'B6 mode' or 'E9 mode' -- it's all kinda there together.

The convertible players would probably love to have E9 convert to C6. The 'one big tuning' players would probably see it as a disadvantage.

It is useful -- just not to me. Cool idea.

[David Doggett]

I agree with Larry. A C6 lock would only be useful for former D10 C6 players who wanted to keep the same fret relationships they are use to. And it would be useful if you wanted to be able to use open string hammer-ons and pull-offs in the keys of C or Am.

There are a lot of strong theory and fret relationships between E9 and B6, since B is the V of E, and E is the IV of B. Also, an important part of the C6 tuning is using it as an F Maj7,9 tuning with the root on string 9 of C6 (string 11 of a uni). When you are in the B6 mode of a uni, that has the same frets and the same root string as E9, which of course are very familiar. All of this makes learning B6 easier for an E9 player than learning the completely unrelated fret positions of C6.

However, having said all that, the one-big-tuning of E9/B6 is still all there on these Excels, as long as you use the E-lower lever instead of the C6 lock. So in that sense, the C6 lock would just be an additional option, which is basically like having a built in capo to take you from B6 to C6, which would sometimes be useful for all uni players. But as long as you are building in the mechanics for this kind of capo, what would really be interesting would be to extend it to also be able to capo E9 up to F9. That plus exchangeable pickups would make Excel the most versatile uni of all.

[Scott Swartz]

Would an advantage of changing to C6 be fewer tuning compromises?

I haven't played a universal in a while but I seem to remember when tuning JI in E9/B6, certain notes have to be compromised between the E9 usage and the B6 usage.

[Larry Bell]

Scott,

I suspect the answer to your question is YES, but I really don't have that much trouble tuning a pretty loaded guitar -- with 8x8 and 40 odd pulls on one neck. I don't tune JI -- I go somewhere in between ET and JI. It's easier to compromise that way. You give away a bit on the thirds and sixths but combinations sound better to me than with JI.

With the C-Lock you would tune the open C6 tuning and then set the stops for the C6 changes so, yeah, I'd suspect you could optimize those pulls better than with B6.

But that is only for those who are not interested in exploring what's in those B6 changes for the E9 tuning and vice versa. For example, the C6 pedal that (translated to B6) raises B to C# on 5 and G# to A# on 6 provides a really cool E to F#7 (I to II7) change. The B pedal is the A to Bb change many C6 players use. The list goes on of ways the two tunings can be used together on a universal guitar.

If you apply a bit of taste the combinations will be tasteful. The E9 is great at straight major and minor chords and you have to work to get nice closely voiced, interesting sounding chords. C6 is the other way around. Folks brag about getting C6 sounds on E9. The universal player can do it both ways and change between them seamlessly. The E9 and B6 are very complementary together in the same song IF YOU LET THEM BE.

(getting off of soap box)

[Don E. Curtis]

http://www.scottysmusic.com/steellist02.htm
There are some photos of this guitar at scottysmusic.com under steel inventory.
This is a D-10 simulator, not a universal.
It is fantastic!
I will try to get Michael Scott to help me post the Copedant and details.
It has double funtion knee levers and splits built in with a 7 raise 5 lower changer, 25 1/2" scale and some bells & whistles you might not believe.
I will try to do a better write up next week on this and the new E9/B6 True Universal that I just got at the Convention.
Don E.
Scotty's

[Charlie McDonald]

In the earlier thread about Excel, Al Marcus referred to his E9/E6 tuning.
http://www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/almarcus7.htm
Printed here without his permission, altho he offered to post it.
I love his ideas, and he has other interesting tunings there.
[tab]_______LL....LV....LR....1....2....3....4....5....6....7....8...RL...RR
1__F#______________G
2__D#
3__G#_________________________A______________A
4__E___F__________________________________________F#_________________D#
5__C#______________________________C______________D#________D____D#
6__B_________A___________C#_____________Bb
7__G#______________F#_________A______________G
8__E___F_____________________________________________________________D#
9__C#_______________________________________________________D
10_B_____________________C#_____________Bb_____________A
11_G#_________________________A_________F#___A_________F#
12_E___C# [/tab]

P 1 & 2 is E9, plus LLK & RRK. LLK is also Boowah for E6.

P 7 is A6 and Amaj 7th bottom.

LRK & LVK is A6 with P7.

LRK is F# 7th with P4.

LVK is A7th with P5.

P8 is E7th , Good for both E9 and E6 playing. Also is Augmented with P4.

RLK is Emaj7 can replace the 2nd string on E9. Works with P4 & P5.

IMPORTANT! Bar positions on E9 are the same as Bar positions on E6. ie;
G is on the 3rd fret for both E9 and E6.
The LRK and LVK whole tone drops are the same as The Paul Franklin 4th pedal.
If you want, you can swap the RRK with the LRK, so both LLK are
standard Emmons setup.

[C Dixon]

Respectfully, I say "Bah humbug!"

40 yrs ago I received my first PSG. It was a Fender S-8, 400 that I ordered with 6 pedals. I could not afford its big sister; the model 1000 which came as standard; D-8 with 8 pedals.

From the onset I invisioned a single neck guitar that could do it all. And I mean ALL. Shortly after I received my 400, two men by the name of Shot Jackson and Buddy Emmons designed and built a PSG. It was hailed by many as the guitar that could do it all and do it better than any other guitar including the Fenders.

I wanted one, but could not afford one. Later Gene O'Neal told me "It is good you did not get it, there is a better guitar and Buddy is involved with that one. It is an Emmons. Get it!"

I did. A '69 Emmons D-10 with 9 pedals and 2 knee levers, both on the right knee. From the instant I played it, I said to my self, "This is wrong". Why should we have to take a step backwards (towards multi neck guitars) and still have to have more than one neck?"

But the world built and bought mostly D-10's. So I bought it, fought it, and lived with it. But all the while playing on one of the necks I NEEDED changes that were on the other neck. And this was not a few time scenario. It was all the time.

But no one built one. The first universals did NOT do it. In fact some put a lock on it, making it nothing more than 2 necks in one. It was then "thought" of that way and "played" that way. I felt and feel that was and is wrong. But then "who am I?"

But my feeble brain still feels that one neck should do it. So I set out to find a tuning (and a way) that it ALL could be done on one neck . I have NOT found it as of this writing.

But........

I believe I have come very close.

The following copedent shows it.

This is the setup:



This is the guitar:



Time will tell whether a true "universal" will ever come to fruition. For now, the jury is still out IMO.

Jesus alone, knows what the future entails. But as always, we WILL find out. Praise His holy name.

c.

[Charlie McDonald]

I'm not looking for universal, I'm looking at ideas for myself.
I think Al has done some looking too.

[Don E. Curtis]

Here is the Setup on the Guitar Scotty’s has in stock…it is a 12 String Keyless with a 25 ½” Scale Length, Single Coil Pickup and features a 7 Raise and 5 Lower Changer with the Split Tuning Screws built in to the front of the Changer Finger. For the Levers going in the wrong direction, Mitsuo simply inverts the Bell Crank on the Cross Shaft to convert it to the “pull” direction. This allows him to have what he calls, “the Pendulum” Lever which operates in both directions. So the Left Knee Right for the E9 will go to the right, then put your leg on the other side and it then operates the C6 tuning going to the left. Then when you engage the Lock System it changes 10 strings, raising and/or lowering them to achieve a true C6 Tuning with not only a consecutive G note on the top…but also the “D” note on string two and an “F” note on string one. Then the most innovative part is that when you engage the Lock it switches the “See-saw” Knee Levers where the right leg knees will now have completely different changes now corresponding with the C6 Tuning. So this guitar will handle most any D-10 Copedant no matter how advanced. Excel can hold 10 Pedals; it can pull the “Crawford Cluster” with five knees on the left leg E9 with staggered levers in both directions and in the center too. It can hold another Pendulum Lever or additional Seesaw Levers. Buddy Cage’s 14 String is totally loaded up. Plus you can put the Eb Levers anywhere you want…the Seesaws don’t care and neither does the Lock. You can even put your ninth String D back in the E9 and lower it to C# just like you always have. Then put your C6 Knee Lever Changes anywhere you want. You can even split a string twice if you needed to temper tune them different by using the Split Screw and an additional Pull Rod Split. It would be real hard to stump this guitar. But…it is not a Universal, it is a Double Neck Simulator…so the pedals don’t work for both, they cancel each other out, if the B Pedal pulls and A and the Lock pulls an A then the B Pedal won’t work, so all the E9 Pedals would be off by a half step. Vise versa, unlocked all of the C6 Pedals pull a half step too far. Hope this helps. I sure am enjoying my new Excel. Don

http://www.scottysmusic.com/E9C6NewEXCEL.pdf

[Donny Hinson]

But my feeble brain still feels that one neck should do it. So I set out to find a tuning (and a way) that it ALL could be done on one neck . I have NOT found it as of this writing.

Carl, far better players than you or I have already spoken, not all in words but in their preference. When you try to combine the two tunings, you lose a little of each.

Pick whatever you like and use it! I have no problem with that. But trying to convince others that "one neck is better" is still an exercise in futility, IMHO.

A single neck may benefit your back, or your pocketbook, but it has nothing at all to do with the music produced, IMHO.

[Greg Cutshaw]

Thanks for the explanation Don Curtis! It's not often that something this unique and interesting comes along. I can't imagine how hard it would be to turn a concept like a guitar simulator into a finished product like this.

Greg

[Brad Malone]

But…it is not a Universal, it is a Double Neck Simulator…<<

Don, Great job in explaining the Simulator...it is something that people have been waiting for...this guitar puts the E9th and C6th on one neck without any compromises...just throw the switch...no changing body positions...what a great invention. What is the cost of this Guitar with the normal 8 floor pedal, seven knee lever setup? Also, what is the waiting time?

[Mike Vallandigham]

A few questions:

1. So the right knee levers (the see-saw levers) dont actuate both ways, but switch pulls (from E9 to C6 pulls) when the lock is engaged?

2. Are there any "pendulum " knee levers on the guitar at scottys? perhaps the LKR knee lever being able to actuate from both sides?

3. Is the lock lever and it's pulls totally separate from the other pedal and knee lever pulls? ie will changing copedant require you to re-set the 1/2 step drop/raises on the lock mechanism?


thanks!!

[C Dixon]

Hi Mike,

I will defer most of your questions to someone (Don Curtis) that is far more qualified than I to answer them.

I will comment on what Mitsuo is now doing on most of his guitars, (my new one included). IE: there are NO reversing knee lever mechanisms on my guitar. And I have presently 4 examples of where there would be reversing assy's if built by most builders.

Take a look at the following picture:




Note the inordinate number of raises and lowers on this changer; which is now standard on all Excel Superb PSG's. Because there are sooo many, SOME of the holes are in line ABOVE the crossrods. (as viewed with the guitar in the upright position.)

Note: from bottom to top: 3 lowers, 5 raises, 2 more lowers and 2 more raises; for a total of 12 (7 raises and 5 lowers)

This means if you install a bellcrank above the crossrod (in lieu of the standard location below the crossrod), you have an automatic reversing of motion. Thus, no need for any form of cumbersome "reversing" assy's, etc.

But this also affords the feature whereby the same crossrod can do DOUBLE duty. IE: in one Knee lever direction from idle, it can pull one set of pullrods, while in the opposite direction it can pull an entirely different set of pullrods.

Thus what Don talked about in the case of LKR (on E9th). Simply locate your knee to the right of that lever and now pushing the lever to the left (instead of the standard right movement) and you control a different set of bellcranks and their associated pullrods. Neat huh?

And you can do this on ANY knee lever on the guitar.

As I say, I have four examples of "above the crossrod" bellcranks. However, I do not have any examples of double action knee levers. BUT I could easily.

Finally, on my "lok" lever, it operates an entirely DIFFERENT set of bellcranks and pullrods. I assume this is the case on the guitar Don described. Thus I do not suffer from what many universals cause; and that is NO way to tune the changes when in the "lok" mode. Plus it allows me to add any number of other changes to the lok mode each separately tunable.

IE on my guitar:

1. "E" lever lowers 4 and 8 to Eb

2. "Lok" lever lowers 4 and 8 to Eb AND it lowers 2 to a C#. This added pull affects the tuning of 4 and 8. By using a separate crossrod (on the lok lever), separate bellcranks and pullrods, it is tunable. Praise Jesus.

c.

[b0b]

It requires a knee change to get the E9th D string but other than that, it seems to cover all the bases:
<center>
Excel S-12 Superb * E9/C6 Double Neck Simulator


</center>

[richard burton]

I have an aversion to 'under and over' bell cranks on the right knee, 'cos the pivot point for the knee lever is further away from the body of the steel, ie it's closer to the floor, and the players right knee is very close to the steel body ( because of the volume pedal), therefore a lot more effort is required to activate the right knee levers.

On my ZB, I moved the pivot point of the RKR as close to the body as possible

[Don E. Curtis]

Here is a Copedant that gives you what I guess I consider to be want most want with the Emmons Pedals and both E String Levers on the Left Leg.
So to try and answer the questions...
No, the See-saw Levers do not go both ways, just the Pendulum Lever. The guitar at Scotty's does not have a Pendulum Lever. As far as I know the only two guitars in the US so far with Pendulum Levers and See-saw Levers is my new guitar and Buddy Cage's 14 string. (Which is in Japan right now getting tweeked)
So my guitar with 6 Levers functions as 9!
Go back and find the postings on Buddy Cage's guitar when it first came in last year around September for more reading.
Anyway...on this Copedant you have the 9th string back on the E9 along with the lower to C# on the RKR.
So the first 10 Strings are a complete standard E9 Nashville Chromatic Tuning while the last 10 Strings are a complete C6 with the G on top raising to G# on Pedal 5. The "D" String on string #2 raising to D# with Pedal 8. Finally the F String on #1. (Sounds like the A&F Lever combo Chromatic Strings)
So you can just transfer your setup from your D-10 right over to this Simulator.
And yes, every single note is independantly tuned including the Lock.
I have had no trouble Temper Tuning my Universal just using the same increments respectively from my D-10.
By the way, I have sold both of my D-10's and now only have my Universals. The GFI Ultra and the Excel Superb. My Excel is a E9/B6 and when the lock is not engauged it is exactly the same as the GFI. It's only when I lock it in that the See-saws activate and the open strings change. So I'm a full blown Universal with or without the Lock. As Larry says, "One Big Tuning"
It's what I've wanted and needed for 29 years.
I won't go back,
Hope this inspires something! It's all good...
Don E.



http://www.scottysmusic.com/E9C6NewEXCELRealE9.pdf

[bob drawbaugh]

Donny with all due respect I think Carl is right. I think one day the Pedal Steel will be a Single neck guitar. But I don't think it will be an E9th/B6th or C6th. It want come from someone on this fourm or even a country player IMHO. I think we are more followers than leaders. What ever our heros do, well thats what we do. Nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying if our heros don't step out side the box then we want. There are single neck players that don't play a note of country music getting it done on a single neck guitar. They have no need for this Double neck beast. I can't find the post but Paul Franklin said he could see the Steel going to a single C6th tuning, or somthing to that effect. You and I may not see it in our life time, but I think it will happen.

[Don E. Curtis]

Here is my setup on the Excel, my GFI without the Lock is exactly the same and all pedals function musically in either E9 or B6 tuning while holding the RKL Knee Lever and the GFI has no lock. So then the Excel is the same while holding the Lever, but when I engage the lock on the Excel it not only drops the E’s, but also lowers string #3 a whole step to give the tuning sequentially without having to jump to the 1st string, then it lowers string #2 a whole step and gives the equivalent of the “D” note on a C6 neck, and raises string #1 back up to the high G# which is a “6th” tone. Along with transferring the ‘See-saw’ Levers on the right leg. Plus, the LKR is the ‘Pendulum’ Lever going to the right from the E9 side and then put your leg on the other side and it goes to the left for the B6 change. The Splits are built in so I can split the Center Knee Vertical with the Right Knee Left See-saw Lever.
With the 7 raise and 5 lower Changer it would be hard to maybe fill it up. On the down side, there are a couple holes that the Cross Shafts are in the way that you have to go over or go under…
I don’t have too much trouble going to B6, I played a D-10 for 25 years and just switched to the Universal about 11 months ago. Nevertheless, on the Excel with the lock I can play pretty much everything I ever played on the C6. It is a little tougher without the lock and having to grab that first string. (I always had a G on top, not the D), but now I have both! Jeff Newman was really good at using the second string lowered along with the Eb’s. I heard him in Dallas before his early demise and he tore it up!
I’ve been writing S-12 Universal Copedants for some 29 years and it’s only now that a guitar is available that will actually handle it. For the S-10’s and D-10’s it’s not an issue, but when it comes to the Universal the triple raise, triple lower Changers just won’t handle it. Especially if the Splits aren’t built in.
So here is my Copedant…
Thanks for reading, and I know that Mr. Mitsuo Fujii, designer & builder from the “Fuzzy” Excel Steel Guitar Company of Japan sure appreciates the publicity! And I sure appreciate the fine guitar he built for me…
Your Steel Friend,
Don E. Curtis