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Topic: Using the volume pedal |
Billy Murdoch
From:
Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.
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Posted 4 Oct 2008 1:25 am |
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Do You use the volume pedal flat out when playing?
I usually set My sound with the pedal about 75%
I mic the Nasville 112 and the bandleader operates the sound mix,He always gets me to put the pedal down all the way whilst setting the levels.
During playing with the band I cannot hear the sound from the P.A.speakers,I only hear My amp,the steel is not in the monitors.
Sometimes I have to put the pedal down all the way for a short while if the lead guitar and drums get a bit loud.
Sorry for waffling.
To the point, By putting the pedal all the way down will the amp be overdriven and distort?
Best regards
Billy
I was'nt sure whether to post this in electromics section,please move if necessary |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 4 Oct 2008 4:40 am
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| Quote: |
| Do You use the volume pedal flat out when playing? |
No, never. Ideally, the normal playing position should be no more than half-pedal. This allows for maximum sustain to be introduced when you need it. Whether or not you get distortion with the pedal all the way down depends on your particular amp, and how you have it set. |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 4 Oct 2008 5:09 am
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Your bandleader is making a mistake by setting the mix levels with your volume pedal flat out.
About half way setting on the volume pedal is where your mix level should be set.
Don't use your volume pedal to increase your volume, use it to maximise your sustain. |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2008 5:42 am
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I could not agree more with Donny and Richard. That to me says it all.
c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2008 6:36 am
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The responses all assume normal country-style use of the volume pedal as a sustain-enhancer, and ""halfway" is a judgement call since it depends on what "halfway"" means on the particular pedal - on some, half the travel might put you at an inaudible level; on others it's not much different than full-on. I'd word it like this - set it so when you play you can be heard at a normal level, and when you depress the pedal you are compensating for the decaying note volume.
The very first thing you need to do was already mentioned - teach the bandleader how a volume pedal is used, and tell him that 50-75% (depending on the pedal) is where it WILL be set for mix purposes, and "full on" will NOT make the guitar louder - it will help keep it at he SAME level.
But from a technical standpoint it's apparent there is a misconception - a volume pedal is essentially a passive device - it "subtracts" from the signal, it doesn't "add" to it. So it has NOTHING to do with distortion *unless* you 1) are having to turn your amp way up, and 2) when your amp IS turned way up, it distorts.
This would cause the full signal from the guitar - the sound with the pedal fully depressed, or what you would get with NO pedal - to overdrive the amp.
| Quote: |
| To the point, By putting the pedal all the way down will the amp be overdriven and distort? |
To clarify - that statement can't be answered without knowing your amp settings.
If you have to depress the pedal all the way to be heard, your amp is not loud enough for the situation. And if you depress the pedal to be heard and you get distortion, you either have too low-powered an amp, the wrong speaker, or an amp that needs service.
Now, if the entire BAND is too loud, that's a problem with the "situation" I mentioned. You have choices, AFTER ensuring your amp is in good working order: 1) talk to the leader/group and try to get the total level reduced, or 2) get an amp suitable for the situation, or 3) quit.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 4 Oct 2008 7:15 am
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What I used to do is give the soundman a set list and have him take notes on my levels so I could understand how to control my volume better. Solo too loud, backing pads too quiet.... that sort of thing.
Over in the UK the soundmen generally are very good. You can learn quite a bit from them.
If you don't have a soundman then record the gigs and take notes yourself about what you need to be more aware of.
_________________
Bob |
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Billy Murdoch
From:
Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.
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Posted 4 Oct 2008 7:43 am
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Thanks Gents for the well informed replies.
Best regards
Billy |
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Doug Seymour
From:
Jamestown NY USA (deceased)
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Posted 4 Oct 2008 7:37 pm
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| I was at the Nashville Palace back in '04 with my buddy LaVern Skazenski as we ate our burgers and listened to the 4 piece band Bobbe was filling in with for the regular guy. I thought the sound was excellent, balance just perfect! Later in the evening, I went back and complemented the sound man. He thanked me and told me his day gig for the last 20 years had been as a studio engineer. Too bad not every one can be that lucky!? A sound man/leader who doesn't know what a steel is cannot help you very much! These sound "experts" can make or break a band!! Throw your leader a curve and pick very softly with the pedal maxed out like he says......see what that does to help your situation? |
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Ron !
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Posted 4 Oct 2008 8:14 pm
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| Quote: |
| Throw your leader a curve and pick very softly with the pedal maxed out like he says |
Doug,
man that sounds familiar to me.In the 90's I played in a band with the lead player as the sound man and I tell you this.The first lead player(tele) that is not to loud is probably not even born yet.
I always told him when he set the levels that I had my pedal all the way down.In fact it was half way down.He never figured out where my volume came from.
At one point did we tape his controls on the amp with Duct-tape because he turned his volume up all the time.
50-60% on a volume pedal is the best level IMO.
Ron |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Billy Murdoch
From:
Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.
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Posted 5 Oct 2008 7:30 am
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Basil,
I am using the "Tonic" pre amp which I connect to the "Power amp in" jack on the rear of the 112.
If I am correct the XLR out to DI is from the pre amp section of the 112 which in My set up is being bypassed.
The method of connection for the "Tonic" is what is recommended by Brad Sarno.
If I connect to the front of the 112 there is unwanted noise.
Thanks
Billy |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 5 Oct 2008 11:06 am
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Are you working with a soundman that has exsperience with a steel guitarist?
Last edited by Larry Bressington on 5 Oct 2008 7:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
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Posted 5 Oct 2008 11:54 am
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Billy - all the advice here is spot on. A sound man should ask you to play flat out, i.e. the loudest that you are likely to play at throughout the gig. That's different from asking you to play with the volume pedal flat out. I have never been asked to play with the volume pedal flat out and wouldn't do it. I would run the risk of damaging my speaker, as I hardly ever go past 50% of what my volume pedal lets through except in a case where I need to sustain a long note.
Some sneaky players that I have seen have held right back at the sound check and then given it some serious 'welly' come gig time. That frustrates the sound crew who are trying to keep the front mix and monitor mix the same at live time as it was during the sound check.
_________________
Show Pro D10 - amber (8+6), MSA D10 Legend XL Signature - redburst (9+6), Sho-Bud Pro 111 Custom (8+6), Emmons black Push-Pull D10 (8+5), Zum D10 (8x8), Hudson pedal resonator. Telonics TCA-500, Webb 614-E, |
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Billy Murdoch
From:
Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.
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Posted 5 Oct 2008 12:03 pm
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Ken,
Thanks for the advice,
We can't always have a "soundman"mostly it is the lead singer who sets the volumes and the percussionist  who walks out front and gives the signs.
Point taken about not putting the foot down.
By the way I can almost hear Your new Webb from here,You certainly sound like a happy player.
We have our 'plane tickets for Dallas.Hope to see You there for a pint of Guinness.
Ann says Hi.
Billy |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 5 Oct 2008 4:33 pm
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You are right Billy, the DI is taken from the pre-amp section, one thing puzzles me: You say unwanted noise.
I have used the NV112 since its inception and sometimes use two, and under the most of demanding studio environments I have NEVER encountered noise.(Except from the chain before the input. i.e. the guitar/pedal etc.)..
Why not go into the low gain input and set the EQ on the amp "Flat", and adjust the output of the "Tonic" pre amp to drive the low gain input at optimum ? |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 5 Oct 2008 7:12 pm
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I have made a mistake here whilst editing and adding, sorry!
Last edited by Larry Bressington on 5 Oct 2008 7:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 5 Oct 2008 7:37 pm
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I always have the band play a song to set my level, you cant give a soundman an honest volume level, until you feel the vibe around you, you can give him a check signal,I have been throught that ' flat out stuff' just give him half! If he argues with you, because he can see that your foot is only half way down, turn your amp down and give him full pedal,to protect the speaker,[ This not to con the soundman] when you get done, slip the volume back up, it should still be 'fairly' close volume when you start playing, at half throttle. If you have a knowlegable soundman who understands steel guitar you wont have to go through all that!
However in the real world, even on major venue's, that is not always the case. A steel guitar is the only instrument on the bandstand that really cant be played flat out, and i have said that phrase a 1000 times in 20 years, as i have had soundmen come up and look at my pedal, [ no joking, major stages] so there has to be trust, and you have to be consistant.
Flat out to a steeler is half pedal, flat out to a some soundmen, means 'pedal wide open', and one must not get confused with, FULL VOLUME VS FLATOUT!
I hate to say it, but i have had certain situations, and one being in Nashville, where the soundman insisted i full throttle the volume pedal, after i had to give him the run down as i have described above; I gave him full throttle and he sound checked me; After the first song, he sayes; you turned down!
No i am serious, if you get out there in the real world and play, you will run into this. A great soundman will just ask you for a volume check, and thats about half pedal or so, everybody has a slightly different feel on the pedal. If you work with a consistant sound crew, you will only have to do this once. When you soundcheck a guitar or fiddle you have back-up level and then full volume for lead, and thats how many soundmen see the steel guitar; How many times have you gone to see someone famous, and could not hear the steelie? Thats why!
JIM SLIFF, sounds like you have been there, GOOD MAN!
Last edited by Larry Bressington on 6 Oct 2008 10:18 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
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Posted 6 Oct 2008 3:56 am
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Hi Billy
The Webb is fantastic and I am very happy. Best sound I have ever had. I hope to do some acapella recording with it soon, and I will send you an MP3 by email of the results.
I won't be going to Dallas in March unfortunately as I have used up much of my leave entitlement at work in this financial year, which goes up to 31st March 09. I will miss you guys and all the fun you will have. I am going to the States in April though with my wife, the drummer from my band and his wife. We're going to Nashville primarily, but do intend to stop off at Memphis and a weekend in Texas to see Reece Anderson and hopefully Steve Palousek playing.
Regards to Ann
Ken
_________________
Show Pro D10 - amber (8+6), MSA D10 Legend XL Signature - redburst (9+6), Sho-Bud Pro 111 Custom (8+6), Emmons black Push-Pull D10 (8+5), Zum D10 (8x8), Hudson pedal resonator. Telonics TCA-500, Webb 614-E, |
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Billy Murdoch
From:
Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.
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Posted 6 Oct 2008 4:08 am
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Baz,
Thanks again for Your reply.
As I mentioned before,I use the "Tonic" pre amp,this unit gives Me several hook up options.
I currently go from the Balanced XLR out of the Tonic to the 1/4" jack power amp in on the Nash.
I can also come out of the Tonic from the 1/4" out jack.
That gives Me six ways of connecting the gear.
Five of the methods result in amp hum,the kind You would get if You touch the tip of a guitar lead when connected, though not as loud.
I do not use My profex at the same time as the Tonic.
When I use My profex on its own I get no hum at all no matter which way it is connected.
I do'nt think this is a fault with the Tonic,I guess it is just one of thos "Electronic" things.
Best regards
Billy |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 6 Oct 2008 4:21 am
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| Quote: |
| Five of the methods result in amp hum,the kind You would get if You touch the tip of a guitar lead when connected, though not as loud |
Earth loop.. disconnect the earth on the "Tonic" because, the piece of equipment in the chain that draws the most current has the least resistive path to earth, therefore the power amp has the most efficient earth and the tonic SHOULD earth through the screen of the connecting lead.
The Profex doesn't hum because it's an EXTERNALLY DC powered device, and the earth isn't DIRECTLY connected to the internal electronics. |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 6 Oct 2008 6:42 am
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| For American readers, EARTH = GROUND. |
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