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Topic: Universal 12.....tuning by ear |
Joe Butcher
From:
Dallas,Texas, USA
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Posted 5 Oct 2008 6:08 am |
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I recently started tuning my Universal 12 string by ear. I can do the E9 side of it just fine, but I am having trouble finding the notes to match the 4,5,6,7 and 8 pedals to. My copedant is pretty standard, the same as Jeff Newman used, which can be found here: http://www.jeffran.com/tuning.php
Sure would appreciate some help |
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Joe Butcher
From:
Dallas,Texas, USA
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Posted 5 Oct 2008 11:35 am
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geez.......no replies yet??
Too bad this wasnt a question about what kind of polish to use on my volume pedal!!!! 
No, but seriously.....I know theres some die hard universal players out there. I'm sure a few of you must tune by ear. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 5 Oct 2008 1:48 pm
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Joe, the general principle is to understand the chord each pedal gives you, and tune the pedal stops of that chord to sound good with the unaffected strings of that chord. On C6 the chords for each pedal are:
4 CM7 or IM7
5 D9 or II9
6 F9 or IV9
7 G6 or V6
8 A7 or VI7
On E9/B6 uni that would be:
4 BM7 (the IM7 of the B6 tuning)
5 C#9 (II9)
6 E9 (IV9)
7 F#6 (V6)
8 Ab7 (VI7)
7ths are dissonant, and not so easy to tune by ear. But on 10-string C6 the M7 (B) on pedal 4 is the 3rd of the G chord (V chord). So tune the B stop of string 4 by ear as the 3rd to the G on string 5. Tune the B stop on string 8 an octave below the B stop of string 4. If you have a pedal analogous to this on a uni, those are Bb stops on strings 6 and 10, tuned as thirds to the F# on string 7. This assumes your F# is tuned straight up to the reference you use for tuning E9.
Pedal 5 of C6 gives a II9. The root is the D stop on string 10, the 3rd is the F# stop on strings 5 and 9, and those are tuned to the reference As on strings 4 and 8, which are the 5th of that chord. On a uni, just drop all those pitches a half step, and add 2 to the string number. So you are tuning the C# stop on string 12 as the root, the F stops on strings 7 and 11 as the 3rds, and the references are the G#s on strings 6 and 10, which are the 5ths of that C#9 chord. The 7th is on unaffected strings 5 and 9, and the 9th is on unaffected strings 4 and 8. You have to listen to them as references also. They may not work out perfect, but they are dissonant anyway, and so don’t have to be beatless. It is most important to have the root and 3rd stops sound sweet with the reference 5ths.
The equivalent of C6 pedal 7 gives an F#6 chord on uni. The root is the F# on string 7. Use that as the reference to tune the A# stop on string 6 as the 3rd, and the C# stop on string 5 as the 5th.
C6 pedal 8, the boo-wah pedal, gives an Ab7 chord on uni. The reference root is the Ab (G#) on string 10. The C stop on string 9 is tuned as the 3rd. The Eb stop on string 11 is tuned as the 5th.
This is the way I do it. And it all sounds good to me. Because you are matching your stops by ear to the unaffected strings, you can make your stops sound as sweet as you want. |
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Joe Butcher
From:
Dallas,Texas, USA
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Posted 5 Oct 2008 2:23 pm
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Thanks David, I was hoping it would be you who answered my question!!
Sure do appreciate it.
Joe |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 6 Oct 2008 6:06 am
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Hi Joe,
Sorry, I did not see your thread before, or I would have responded sooner.
| Quote: |
| but I am having trouble finding the notes to match the 4,5,6,7 and 8 pedals to |
You are not the only one that has a problem with it. I am sure Buddy Emmons, et-al, has fought it forever. After 40 yrs of intense study and experimenting and analyzing it, I must conclude that the way MOST (I do not know how you tune) tune their E9th necks, can be a detriment when trying to tune their C6 necks, (OR the B6 pedals on a universal.
Here is the problem in most cases. On E9th most are tuning our 3rds and 6ths pretty much harmonically pure. That is; few to no "beats" can be heard when tuning these intervals and chords.
If you try this on pedals 5 and 6 you are going to end up with 7ths and 9ths that do NOT have the "tension" that those chords require. Let me explain:
AS David Doggett so aptly said, the 5th pedal is a II9 chord on C6. Which equates to an open D9th chord (C#9th on Universals). However the "3rd" note of D is F# and if you tune that F# to be harmonically pure (as is done by most players when tuning E9th 3rds and chords) the II9 chord is not going to sound correct.
This same scenario applies when using the 6th pedal. the tendency is to tune that lowered E string to Eb (D in the case of universals) so that you get a pretty "minor" chord, but the rich 7th chord (with the proper "tension") is not going to sound correct.
And this is the problem. IE, you are between a rock and a hard place BECAUSE we insist on getting those awesomely beautiful major and minor third chords on E9th, that our ears WANT to hear these when playing those major and minor chords that are created using pedals 5 and 6 and 8. Note: pedal 7 should give you little difficulty, since there is NO 7th or 9th, rather a harmoically pure "major 7th and 9th" respectively)
Putting it more succinctly; our ears get soooooo "cultured" to those beautiful "flatted 3rds", it is most difficult to give them up when we are using pedals 5 and 6 and 8 and even worse; when we create that "diminished" chord using both together. Since a diminished chord only gives the right amount of "tension" when ALL intervals are pretty close to straight up. The same is true for an "augmented", but it is more forgiving than a dim.
So how do you tune them for the best compromise. By ear! Pick strings 4, 5 and 7 on a universal with the 5th pedal engaged, and tune for that awesomely "tensioned" 9th sound. Disgregard the poor sounding C# major triad sound.
Similarly; pick strings 5, 6 and 8 with the 6th pedal engaged and tune for that awesomely "tensioned" 7th sound. Disgregard the poor sounding B minor triad sound.
Strum strings 12 thru 6 while engaging the 8th pedal and tune for an awesomely "tensioned" 7th sound. Disgregard major chords. Also, IF you engage this pedal while lowering the 5th string a half a tone, then include that string in the "strum" and tune for that awesomely "tensioned" 9th sound.
Or that is what I have had to do as a compromise, BECAUSE I insist on NO "beats" when tuning the E9th tuning. IF on the other hand, I tuned ET (equal temperament; or straight up 440 across the spectrum), this would not occur, but then EVERY chord would sound a little out of tune UNTIL my ears got "cultured" to it, which may take years that I am not willing to endure.
Others will disagree. So take any and all comments with a grain of salt, and seek wisdom from the ultimate authority Jesus Christ. And may He richly bless you always,
c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 6 Oct 2008 8:18 am
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Carl has a point. The real problem with tuning pedal 5 is the unaffected strings 10, 9, and 8. If you tune E9 and B6 near JI by ear, string 10 is tuned flat, as the 3rd of E9 and the 6th of B6. Now for the pedal 5 C#9 chord, you are using that flat string 10 as the reference 5th, which causes you to tune the 11 and 12 string stops flat to match it (similar to the situation with the F lever on E9). The 9th string was tuned straight up as the 5th of E9 and tonic of B6. So it is now sharp of the flat 5th pedal stops, but it is a minor 7th, which needs to be flat of the tonic and 5th. Tampering the stops on strings 11 and 12 somewhat sharp helps the 7th on string 9 sound better, but they will be sharp to the 5th on unaffected string 10. Choose your poison. Other than tuning E9 and B6 ET (ugh), the most elegant solution is a compensator pull on pedal 5 for string 9 to flat that minor 7th.
The 9th (D#) on string 8 is already flat, as the 3rd of B6, so it pretty well matches the flat stops on pedal 5.
BTW, this is not a problem unique to a uni. You have exactly the same problem on 10-string C6 on pedal 5, if you tune the open C6 strings by ear to something close to JI. In spite of what one might expect, for the basic standard stuff, I have not found any more problems with tuning by ear to JI on a uni than on a D10. This largely comes from the fact that the keys of E and B are so closely related (B is the V chord of the key of E, and E is the IV chord of the key of B). |
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