Question for Steel Builders

Martin Weenick · Post by **Martin Weenick** » 28 Sep 2008 6:47 am

When useing a chucking reamer to ream the axel holes in the fingers I go .001" over. This gives plenty of free movement with no side play and seems to be enough internal space to hold enough light oil. When serviceing the guitar I dont know how much oil can migrate down the axel and into the finger with only .001 clearance, especially with the fingers under a load. Have any builders gone as much as .002 when reaming the axel holes? I wonder what the situation with dirt getting in with a .002 clearance? I dont think .002 is too much especially when useing 5/16 thick fingers. There is still plenty of surface area in the hole to keep the finger straight and flat on the shaft, but I just dont like the idea of that much clearance. I would sure like to hear from some of you builders on this subject. John Coop, if you are hanging around whats your opinion ?? Thanks, Martin.

Reginald Diller · Post by **Reginald Diller** » 28 Sep 2008 7:43 am

Hi Martin...
I am a home builder also, a retired toolmaker and I also use the 5/16 aluminum stock size for my fingers. I usually bore my axel holes as opposed to reaming, basically only because I can get the size that I want. .oo1 seems about right for me also, but I use a dry lubricant molydumdisulfide(not sure of the spelling) MolyKote by trade name, so it does not attract dirt and dust like oils sometimes do. It is imperitive though that you work the moly into the axel and the shaft for it to be an effective lubricant. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it..
Reg Diller
regdiller@comcast.net
You can take a look at a couple of my homebuilts at the following webpage
http://home.comcast.net/~regdiller

Johnne Lee Ables · Post by **Johnne Lee Ables** » 28 Sep 2008 7:52 am

Reginald Diller wrote:Hi Martin...

I am a home builder also,
Reg Diller

You can take a look at a couple of my homebuilts at the following webpage
http://home.comcast.net/~regdiller

I love your logo, Reg. Those are very nice instruments. You do great work!

Thanks for posting your web address.

Johnne Lee

Martin Weenick · Post by **Martin Weenick** » 28 Sep 2008 12:54 pm

Great looking machine work Reginald! I assume the slots in the keyless tuner are 3/4 inches deep? Thats a lot of machineing . I can only get about a quarter inch deep cut at one pass with my mill (1-1/2 hp.)It takes me two hard days to make 12 inch end plates out of 2x4 6061 so I guess it's not so bad after all. What kind of mill are you running ? Thanks, Martin.

Alan Miller · Post by **Alan Miller** » 29 Sep 2008 7:47 am

Johnne, Reg's logo, HMS reminds me of the time my dad asked Harry Brooker (Felix Mehndellsson Fame ) what make his steel was ,the logo was HMB, Harry looked up at my dad ad said
" Home Made Bugger"
Dad didnt know Harrys Brookers middle initial was M .

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 29 Sep 2008 8:57 am

Martin, I put 1/2" ID oil-lite bushings in the finger. I used a 1/2" steel shaft.
Plastic spacers between the fingers.It has worked great for a year now. Everything moves freely.
Once I put a wee bit of Krown oil on the fingers.

Martin, I emailed you a couple of weeks ago. Maybe you missed it. I'll re-send. Thanks

Paul Redmond · Post by **Paul Redmond** » 2 Oct 2008 12:04 am

I have used both .002" and .001" clearance dimensions experimentally. The .001" is preferable and does provide sufficient room for an oil film. More important than the actual clearance dimension is the relationship between the material you use for the finger and that of the axle itself. If you use a soft, non-hardened shaft for this purpose, 1/64" wouldn't be enough if you use aluminum for the fingers. You could pack it with lithium-based center grease and it would still most likely gall. I use nitrided ejector pins for axles which can be obtained from anyone who supplies the machine trades with injection mold ejector pins. Smith Enterprises in IL, DME (Detroit Mold Engineering) in MI and other branches, and National Tool and Mfg, also suppliers of mold-related items, are but a few.
FWIW DON'T expect to cut nitrided shafts to length with a hacksaw!!! Cutting these to length requires a surface grinder with a suitable cut-off wheel. They can be hacked down on a common bench grinder if need be. They are usually roller-burnished to a very high-grade surface finish and pose not one problem with galling on the fingers even if 'run dry' from lack of lubrication.
FWIW these shafts can be ordered in metric and standard sizes as well as .005" oversize fractional dimensions, not to mention even-numbered decimal sizes. They can be retro-fitted to any guitar and will last a lot longer than you will!!!
They are not very cheap, but they do the job well and I'll continue to install them into all the guitars I rework. They flat-out don't wear out or gall and given their fine surface finish, they don't ever chew up a changer finger. Depending on the length ordered, several axles can be yielded from one pin. If you really want to play hardball, you can order HSS (High Speed Steel) cutter blanks and make your axles from them. The surface finish on these, however, is not nearly as fine as the nitrided ejector pins and wear will occur on the fingers over time. DON'T settle for the soft welding rod stuff. It will admittedly work over the short haul, but it will also assist your changer components in their self-destruction.
PRR

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 2 Oct 2008 2:06 am

Reginald Diller wrote:You can take a look at a couple of my homebuilts at the following webpage
http://home.comcast.net/~regdiller

Reg. Two things.

I would edit your post to remove your email address. There are folks who search the web for email addresses that have been posted and you get put on spam lists.

Second. Your work is VERY nice looking. In regards to your keyless tuner. Do you really need that long a slot for tuning? Could the tuner have been made a little shorter, or is that part of the design. Great work.

Martin Weenick · Post by **Martin Weenick** » 2 Oct 2008 6:14 am

Very interesting about the pins Paul. I have been useing 416 precision ground stainless for the axels. I even have an experimental 6061 shaft that has been anodized in one of my guitars, so far no problems. I do use aluminum for the fingers but only 7075 or 2024. They have the same (almost) brinel reading as light steel. I will check into the pins. Thanks for the info. Martin.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 2 Oct 2008 7:50 am

A little trick on making the holes in the fingers. Paul Franklin (Sr) told me he has the holes machined out, not drilled out as that produces a smoother surface.

I don't know what Franklin uses for the Axles but my Franklin is a (late) 81 model and still going strong.

I'm not a machinist as I didn't follow it after High School, but I took the Vocational Machine Shop course in High School and our Machnine Shop instructor was a Master Machinist and worked for DeWalt and made a lot of the parts on the original (first) DeWalt Table Saw. (Sort of tells my age too

)

Barry Blackwood · Post by **Barry Blackwood** » 2 Oct 2008 8:39 am

Nice work, Reg.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 2 Oct 2008 9:08 am

I know from engine building that oil will flow into a lot smaller clearances than .001", but anything between .001" and .002" should be be fine for the changer. There's so little movement, and the parts are always loaded from both the strings and the springs, that "slop" has little effect unless it's really bad. (Studying the Anapeg changer design might proove very enlightening.) You also shouldn't worry about appreciable dirt migrating in there for decades. Anyhow, most of it's probably being carried in there with the lubes when you're re-lubricating. (Or maybe if you sweat a lot!)

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 3 Oct 2008 7:30 am

Donny Hinson wrote:... anything between .001" and .002" should be be fine for the changer. There's so little movement, and the parts are always loaded from both the strings and the springs, that "slop" has little effect unless it's really bad.

Yes, loaded with tension in both directions, but still I think that an axle (shaft) may come to rest in 2 different places depending on where it started from. Thus a pitch like C natural on the B string of E9 may be come out higher if you get there by lowering from a raise, vs by raising from a lower.

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 3 Oct 2008 11:02 am

Dirt particulates don't migrate very fast but I am amazed at the places nicotine residue migrates in a couple of steels I've seen that have been played where the cigarette smoke is heavy.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 3 Oct 2008 7:50 pm

Martin, Martin, It's Brinell (Capital "B" and two "L's")

where:

P = applied force (kgf)
D = diameter of indenter (mm)
d = diameter of indentation (mm)

steve takacs · Post by **steve takacs** » 3 Oct 2008 11:09 pm

Hi, Martin, good luck with your steel project. Hope to get back down to my sisters in Florida one of these days. When I do, I'll get in touch. My Norwegian friend has gotten a lot of use out of your Dobro. steve t

Martin Weenick · Post by **Martin Weenick** » 4 Oct 2008 6:30 am

Hi Steve, good to hear from you. I moved off the lake and am about 20 miles (south on 19) closer to your sisters. Stop by when you can, have a shop now and a 2600 square foot home. Have milling machine , lathe and all the rest of the goodies you have to have. Hope to see you soon.

steve takacs · Post by **steve takacs** » 4 Oct 2008 7:10 am

I hear you loud and clear, Martin. Thanks for the invitie. My sisters and I look forward to seeing you & I hope to visit this summer. Will let you know what's up in June. All the best to you, steve t

The Steel Guitar Forum

Question for Steel Builders

Question for Steel Builders

Very nice work, Reg!!!!

Reginald

Fingers

Hi martin

Steve

Sounds Good