Fender Deluxe 6 Intonation Problem

[Frank Welsh]

I wondered if anyone else knows about this "problem" I detected with the Fender Deluxe 6. I previously owned a Deluxe 8 and a triple neck Stringmaster, but always assumed the bridge intonation adjustments were correct, since I didn't notice anything wrong.

On this guitar, you can see from the picture that the bridge is adjusted right back up to the knob that fades the pickups from single to both coils. I know that the bridge needs to go back another quarter of an inch (22 and 1/2 inch scale), since the 12th fret notes are sharp compared to the harmonics, and my recordings with this guitar reveal the lack of proper bridge placement compared to my other steel guitars.

It seems like the entire metal plate needed to be located about half and inch further back. Could this have been a major error in construction? The steel is factory original and in perfect shape. Thanks for any opinions on this.

[basilh]

Using an accurate STEEL rule measure the distance from the ~CENTRE of the nut to the centre of the 12th fret and make the centre of the bridge to the 12th fret the same distance. Any intonation problems after this procedure is performed is purely "Pilot Error"..IMHO FWIW

[Clyde Mattocks]

A possibility: Has the fretboard been replaced?
There are more than one length Fender fretboard. They look alike.

[Lynn Oliver]

...There are more than one length Fender fretboard. They look alike.

The different lengths are easy to identify by the number of block markers after the 24th fret. The 22.5" has two, the 24.5" has three, and the 26" has four.

Here's an example of the 22.5 and 24.5" scales:


And here is the 26" scale"

[Frank Welsh]

Thanks for the observations. The Deluxe 6 is all original and the scale on these models is 22 1/2 inches. The 12th fret notes are sharp compared to the harmonics and I am using the usual string guages for standard C6th: .015, .018, .022, .024, etc., all tuned to proper pitch.

With the same string sets on my Artisan, Harmony, and Rickenbacher aluminum body (1932 vintage) steels, there is no such problem with intonation and 12th fret notes match the harmonics perfectly, so I don't think it's me. I wonder if anyone with a similar Fender model noticed this same issue.

[Lynn Oliver]

I measured my Deluxe 8, and the bridge appears to be right at 22.5".

[Frank Welsh]

I measured my Deluxe 8, and the bridge appears to be right at 22.5".

Lynn, I measured the Deluxe 6 as Basil recommended, from center of the nut to center of bridge and it comes out to exactly 22 1/2 inches with the bridge all the way back against that pickup fader knob. My initial measurement was from the point on the nut where the string is free to vibrate. On standard Spanish guitar, the actual vibrating string length is adjusted so that it is a bit longer than the scale length to compensate for the small portion of each string that does not vibrate due to string stiffness. Of course, that's why most electric guitars have adjustable bridges and even wooden bridges for archtops are usually compensated.

Are your 12th fret notes sharp compared to the harmonics on your Deluxe 8? Of course, a very gentle touch with the steel would be used to make an accurate determination, but this should be the bottom line in testing for correct intonation.

Thanks.

[Lynn Oliver]

...On standard Spanish guitar, the actual vibrating string length is adjusted so that it is a bit longer than the scale length to compensate for the small portion of each string that does not vibrate due to string stiffness...

I don't believe that is the reason for the compensation. The vibrating string length is adjusted to allow for the change in pitch of the string when fretted.

Are your 12th fret notes sharp compared to the harmonics on your Deluxe 8? Of course, a very gentle touch with the steel would be used to make an accurate determination, but this should be the bottom line in testing for correct intonation...

As far as I can tell, the 12th fret notes and harmonics are the same.

The problem is determining an accurate position for the bar in order to make a precise measurement of this type. I don't necessarily agree with the " very gentle touch" to make this measurement, either. Wouldn't you want it compensated so that proper bar pressure (meaning what sounds best) results in good intonation?

But really, who cares? Steel guitar is played by ear anyway, so it shouldn't be a problem to correct slightly for intonation. The "frets" are just a guide anyway, given the parallax involved.

[Frank Welsh]

Dan Erlewine in his "Guitar Player Repair Guide" explains that, in addition to the need to compensate for the small stretching of strings when they are fretted, the strings, especially wound ones, do not actually vibrate until they get a certain distance from the nut and the saddle. Thus, fatter strings need as much as 1/8 inch compensation from the stated scale of the guitar due to the increasing size of their cores and accompanying stiffness.

Playing on the third fret on two strings tuned one octave apart and playing the same strings one octave higher will reveal just how much out of tune they become with each other when the bridge is not adjustable for individual string length.

My Deluxe just doesn't have any more room to add any compensation to the strings and the notes at the 12th fret are noticeably off with either a gentle touch or resting the bar across all the strings normal playing pressure. Any adjustable bridge ought to have some adjustment latitude on both sides of the instrument's theoretical scale.

I agree wholeheartedly with your observations on the "ear" factor in terms of playing in tune. Parallex keeps changing as one moves the steel from fret to fret.

I have an old cheap Harmony with 22 1/2 inch scale, and the straight fixed bridge gives about two millimeters of compensation to all the strings, that is, the bridge is positioned slightly off from the scale. Accuracy on the higher frets, including slants, is noticeably better than on my Fender.

Playing the Fender with a group, the intonation situation is not noticeable; it's just that I've been doing a lot of "one man band" multi-track recording and intonation issues with the Fender became noticeable.

Thanks for the comments.

[Dave Bader]

Frank

Is your blend knob pushed all the way down to the bridge plate? If so pull it up above the bridge. You should be able to get a little more distance on the bridge. That how it is on my D8.

From the look of your picture it seems your bridge has room to move back some. If your ruler is accurate then it looks like you only need a 1/8" It's easier to adjust with less string tension so you may have to detune and retune.

[Frank Welsh]

Dave,

I tried that approach, including removing the blender's knob from the post, which did give the bridge more room to move back. The problem was that doing so caused the bridge to "float" up off the body of the guitar with noticeable loss of sustain. The bridge's adjustment screws together with the springs don't allow the bridge to make contact with the metal baseplate once the bridge is backed off of those "humps" that are stamped into the baseplate.

In it's "normal" position, the bridge rests on the two short raised portions or "humps", providing direct contact with the large metal plate. I even placed steel washers under both ends of the bridge bar to restore the sustain in this "floating" position.

Sustain was restored with the washers filling the gap between the bridge's bottom and the baseplate and intonation was improved, but this "Rube Goldberg" fix only confirmed my suspicion that this guitar's design should have placed the entire bridge assembly a little further back or at least had the bridge itself located a few millimeters more to the rear.

Frustrating to me since this "baby Stringmaster" has that beautiful legendary tone.

[Jim Konrad]

For what its worth.......

Here is a picture of mine, it is set up as I found it. My bridge is under the blender knob and the bass spring is fully compressed and the treble side is out just a tad. The saddle does not float as far as I can tell. All of my harmonics are where they should be. The harmonic also matches the note played at the 12th fret.

I agree the whole thing could be moved back but it seems to work.

"but this "Rube Goldberg" fix only confirmed my suspicion"

I am sorry if this is a stupid question but who is Rube??



<*)))>{

[Lynn Oliver]

I am sorry if this is a stupid question but who is Rube??

See this Wikipedia article.

[basilh]

I am sorry if this is a stupid question but who is Rube??

See this Wikipedia article.

Probably a follower of Heath Robinson

For what it's worth the staggered or compensated bridge principle came about to compensate for the different DEFLECTION of strings being pressed down to a fret.. totally irrelevant on a steel guitar.. Maybe some of the "Heavyweights" could come in on the subject, but a search will yield results to confirm this..
The string length of all the strings should be equal, if not, then all the major steel guitar manufacturers have got it wrong from day one..

[Frank Welsh]

The string length of all the strings should be equal, if not, then all the major steel guitar manufacturers have got it wrong from day one..[/quote]

I forget where, but I read an article by a steel player that claimed that steel guitars really should have a compensated bridge, just as Spanish guitars and many other stringed instruments do. The varied stiffness of the different string gauges calls for more compensation for some strings and less for others. This also applies to the wound strings due to the size of the core wire inside them: the bigger the core, the stiffer the string.

The need for compensation based on pressing a string to the fret on a Spanish guitar is very small compared to the need based on the relative stiffness of the strings. On a pedal steel (e.g. my Universal 12), strings go from .011 down to a mighty .068 inch. The bigger strings need more length to compensate for the sections nearest the bridge that can't vibrate as freely as the rest of the string.

Interesting that the Artisan lap steel comes with Stratocaster style individual adjustable bridges. Also, a signature model Chandler lap steel demonstrated on their website comes with a Gibson style tune-o-matic bridge!

IMHO, the traditional straight steel guitar bridge is easy to manufacture and players "get away with it" with the help of vibrato and, in the words of one of my fellow musicians, "the steel just takes up all your attention when you hear it and you tend not to notice slight out-of-tune issues if there are any."

[Lynn Oliver]

I believe you have it reversed, Frank. The compensation required due to the stiffness of the windings is small compared to the compensation required due to the stiffness of the core.

On my Cruztone, which has a fixed, straight (not slanted) bridge, the first and sixth strings are in tune at the 12th fret with the bar straight, not slanted.

[Frank Welsh]

[quote="Lynn Oliver"]I believe you have it reversed, Frank. The compensation required due to the stiffness of the windings is small compared to the compensation required due to the stiffness of the core.

You are in agreement with my point. I did say that the core is the element that, for the most part, determines the stiffness of a wound string. The windings probably add some small contribution to stiffness.

If you have a low action on an electric Spanish guitar and adjust all the strings to the same height above the frets, you would still need substantial differences in compensation for each string or else chords will be noticeably out of tune as you move up the fingerboard. In this case, the strings' stiffness would be the main cause for needing compensation.

I don't see why it should be any different with the steel guitar.

[Lynn Oliver]

Compensation for fretted guitars is primarily due to the differences in string stiffness when fretting the strings. The difference in vibrating length due to core stiffness is very small in comparison. You might notice a problem if you like to use very heavy unwound strings.

[Frank Welsh]

If anyone's interested, an article in the August 1999 issue of "Steel Guitar World Magazine" by Gene Fields talks about the need for a compensating bridge for pedal steels.

The article maintains that the need for the steel to have a compensated bridge is even greater than that for a Spanish guitar. On a steel, the strings detune at different rates as you move up the neck with the steel, which puts downward pressure on the strings. The detuning effect is more severe the higher you go up the neck. He says that this is due to the varying string core sizes.

The article concludes that any correction of this problem on the pedal steel would be too costly. Manufacturers make the bridges the way they do for very practical reasons.

With the adjustable individual bridges on my Artisan, I was able to eliminate any "detuning" by adjusting the strings to resemble the same relationship you would find on a six string Spanish guitar. I wish the Fender had this (Hmmm - interesting project to do on an old wreck of a lap steel with a Telecaster bridge assembly).

As already mentioned, we move the steel by feel, or ear, or "instinct" with the fret markers as guides. Making reverse slants, especially in the upper positions, I can't even see where the steel is exactly positioned over the tiny fret spaces, but intonation is usually o.k. because I am depending more on "feel" or ear than by fret location. I assume this is more or less the same for everybody else.

Thanks to all for your input.

[Dave Bader]

Frank

Now you got me wondering!! Maybe the nut is bent toward the bridge or something like that. The screws for the nut are very tiny in diameter. They might have bent if there was enough force put on them. I think the proper placement is right between the tuner plate and fretboard. Other then that I guess yours is an oddball setup. I would think they would all be very close in build but anything is possible.

You may want to consider moving the nut to have your bridge more centered over those humps.

[Bill Creller]

I agree with Basilh on having a straight-across bridge. Expensive steel guitars would likely have some sort of compensation if it were at all necessary. Seems nit-picking to have to compensate string length. A few harmonics on the strings can tell the story if it's really out of wack. I've built a bunch of steels without a problem like that.
I know absolutely zero about pedal steels, so their mechanisms are a mystery to me.

[basilh]

It is possible of course that your particular guitar is faulty in construction in some way, like bent nut screws or ?



The majority are surely correct, you say "IMHO" and that's just what it is, as opposed to the FACT that all the major steel manufacturers cater for pro's (Like myself) who are most discerning and also (Believe it or not) quite knowledgeable.

This highlighted link is to a thread that goes into some detail as to why a compensated bridge is unnecessary Click Here

Rickenbacker from 1932 onwards, Gibson from 1935 onwards, and all the commercial manufacturers from the mid 30's onwards are ALL wrong according to you..

Maybe you should stop worrying about the difference in string cores vibrating optimally at varying distances from the anchor point and take on board the combined knowledge of the large majority of the steel guitar fraternity that say definitely there is no case for a compensated bridge system on a steel guitar.



http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=105712&

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=108177

[Frank Welsh]

My Fender and only my Fender seems to suffer from insufficient compensation. My other steels all have sufficient compensation even though they don't provide for individual string compensation. They are "close enough" so any slight imperfections are not noticeable.

My Fender's nut and all other hardware appears in perfect condition - no bent screws, etc. Everything appears to be factory original.

At one time, most "pros" believed that the Earth was flat. I believe in independent thought and testing and my measurements show that MY PARTICULAR Fender could have used a shift of the entire base plate or at least a relocation of the bridge mechanism about a half inch to the rear to offer the optimal position for adjustment.

I just wondered if others have experienced the same issue with this or other Stringmaster type models.

I have never bought into the idea that truth is a matter of majority rule.

[Jim Konrad]

I am sorry if this is a stupid question but who is Rube??

See this Wikipedia article.

Probably a follower of Heath Robinson

Thanks guys!!

I have been a fan of those guys and never even knew there was a name!!

<*)))>{

[Dave Bader]

I just wondered if others have experienced the same issue with this or other Stringmaster type models.

I'm guessing not but I sure hope you find a solution.