Refinishing Steel Guitars?

Bryant Aycock · From: Pikeville, North Carolina

There have been some topics about the "vintage" value of guitars with some mechanical improvements. There are a lot of pro's and con's. How do you guys feel about refinishing the wood in a complete refurbish?
Bryant

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

It depends on who does the refinish and how good of a job it is. Refinishing an old steel properly will actually will restore value to a beater. Same with mechanical work.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I guess it depends on what's important to you.

Personally, I would use the same rule I use for guitars - if it's already been refinished poorly or is a beat up player-grade (i.e., "modified") instrument, fine. But if it's in good, original condition with an unmolested original finish, I wouldn't refinish it under any circumstances. Over the years, I have seen people refinish nicely weathered finishes like this, and it makes me cringe. Virtually nobody does this on vintage guitars anymore for good reasons - but especially value.

Anybody is, of course, free to do whatever they want with their instrument(s). But as I said on that other thread - once you make an irreversible modification to a vintage instrument, there's no going back. If collectors ever start valuing vintage steel guitars like vintage guitars, it will mean a value degradation of at least 50% below a nice, original finish example. I think this is already happening on steels that guitar players collect like old Fenders. Leastways - that's the story I see at vintage guitar shows. A cool old D8 or T8 Stringmaster or other cool Fenfder table steel is worth a lot more with the original finish, IMO.

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Refinishing a guitar will actually diminish the tone. The old finish has hardened and has good resonance. I would leave the old finish on if it is original. It will help the sound and the value.

If the finish has already been messed with.. have at it.

Bill Duncan · From: Lenoir, North Carolina, USA

I've heard that a new finish harms or changes the tone of a guitar; I'm not so sure about this. I've refinished many guitars, electric archtop, solid bodies, classic, and dreadnaught flat tops, and I have never been able to notice any degredation of tone or volumn.

I have never refinished a pedal steel, but I wonder if it really would degrade tone? Would it be something that would pass a blind test? How much is tradition and how much is real in this about refinishing harming tone? A very good refinish would be close to undetectable. Bill Duncan
_________________
You can observe a lot just by looking

Eric Philippsen · From: Central Florida USA

I have been dealt extensively in vintage guitars and amps for about 25 years and I have to maintain a little handle on this highly volatile market. Other contributors to this thread have made good points. That is, refinishing a vintage, collectible guitar is not a decision to be made without serious consideration. In fact, when in doubt - don't. It is true, vintage Fender Stringmasters are definitely worth less if they do not have the original finish. But when I started to notice that doesn't apply as much to pedal steels I asked myself why. I believe that's because the pedal steel world has far fewer participants and, consequently, its related instrument market is slower to respond or catch up, if you will, to its sister-market of guitars. But it will and it is catching up. (Again, those Stringmasters are an indicator of that). The day will come when a refinished 60's or even 70's Emmons or Sho-Bud will be seen as far less desirable than its original counterpart. The subject of modifying a steel by adding more knee levers is interesting. That goes directly to functionality and not appearance. TC Furlong just made a great observation to me when I talked about a recent Emmons S-10 (6+2) that I acquired. I mentioned wanting to keep it original and he countered that if I wanted to simply put it on display that would be one thing but playing it is another. So, adding a knee lever or two is a serious possibility. Finally, as to the tone of a guitar's finish, I believe there is NO question that refinishing a guitar can and often does affect its tone. The properties of nitro-cellulose are different from lacquer and all lacquers are NOT created equal or applied equally.

Bryant Aycock · From: Pikeville, North Carolina

This is a good subject. There are a lot of "back-yard" steel guitars that have been made thru the years. Will the collectable steels come down to Emmons and Sho-Bud's and maybe ZB's. Are the others clones?
Bryant

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I don't think it is a good idea to refinish a regular 6 string guitar but what do you think about the job I did on this old p/p?

Or how about this Stringmaster?

Bryant Aycock · From: Pikeville, North Carolina

Erv, I don't know how they looked when you started, but I can't see how these results could do anything but enhance their value. What a great Job!
Bryant

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

Bryant,
Thank you soooo much!
When I got that quad Stringmaster, it was painted blue, not once but twice.
I will show you a couple of pictures of a T-8 Stringmaster I refinished.

Before:

After:

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Erv - those look like first-class refinish jobs. But even then, I would rather have a good original finish on any guitar. Of course, if those were player-grade (modified) guitars or the finish was off or already redone, what you did makes total sense to me.

Right now, my sense is that finish originality isn't as critical to value on the Emmons and many other pedal steel guitars. With some people, it may be worth more with a nice refinish than a beat original finish - of course, it costs something to refinish a guitar, so not sure about the net value added.

But I'm not so sure about Stringmasters. Fender collectors are very particular about having original finishes.

Of course, none of us have a crystal ball. But IF (that's conditional, I realize) PSG collectors start applying the same criteria that guitar collectors do, the rules will change.

I think refinishes can negatively affect a solid-body guitar, but not always. I have played good reissue guitars that sounded every bit as good as any old guitar - in fact, some of them better. But these guitars were handled specially, and given thin nitrocellulose finishes that rival the best old finishes.

Erv - just saw your last post. Of course, any poorly refinished guitar is a perfect candidate for a good, professional refinish. That's a huge improvement on the Emmons, no doubt. The Stringmaster original finish looks a bit beat, so it's sort of in a grey area. Still, on guitars where the vintage market dictates price, I would leave a somewhat beat but still intact finish on there. I have a D8 Stringmaster with a similar original finish, and I'm leaving it alone. YMMV, that's a judgement call I would not attempt to make for someone else. Part of this also depends on the market to whom one might sell it to. On this forum, refinishes don't seem to be as big an issue. In the greater vintage guitar world, it's a big deal. My experience, of course.

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

Dave,
To my way of thinking there is no mojo connected with the original finish on a steel guitar.
When I refinish the Stringmasters I use the same nitro cellulose lacquer that old Leo had the workers shoot on the guitars when they were built. The only thing I do differently is I use a "tinted" clear coat to add some vintage to the mix. Very Happy

Eric Philippsen · From: Central Florida USA

There is no question that Emmons P/P's are collectible pedal steels. Their prices continue to rise. I believe those who want one should not wait for prices to come down. However, the relatively low number of steel players in the world will give an odd twist to their instruments' market. My guess is that consistently low number of buyers will simply cause values to climb slower. Sho-Buds are, of course, desirable, too. My prediction is that within two years a great many more buyers of older pedal steels will be VERY concerned with an instrument's originality.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

Dave & Eric,
I agree with you when you are talking "collectors" and not players.
However, I will not play an "ugly" guitar.

Bryant Aycock · From: Pikeville, North Carolina

Thanks guys so much for your input. This is just one of the many great things about this forum. I guess it comes down to making a decision about your money and your guitar. I guess it's like the .45 and 9mm debate, it could go on forever. Thanks again for your input.
Bryant

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Erv's refinishes are an example of the way it "should be done" to enhance the value of a steel. I'll guarantee you those steels are worth 50% more with the refinish. I do not understand the "original finish" argument at all. A beat guitar is a beat guitar. I'd much rather have a refinish.

Nick Reed · From: Russellville, KY USA

Mine was beat to hell when I got it, but it looks alot better now. Also I enjoy playing it more now with the new look. To me, that's whats important.

Before

After

Dave Diehl · From: Mechanicsville, MD, USA

Concur with you Erv. No ugly guitars. I have "used" ones that cleaned up nicely and a new finish would have added little to it...so why. On the other hand, I have an Emmons PP that Jerry Roller refinished and it is absolutely beautiful and IF it diminished the tone at all (which was suggested earlier) then it was a 20 out of a 1-10 scale in tone before because the tone now is unbeatable. So, if I had thoughts of refinishing, it would be because I was not happy with it in the first place and would never really be. So I would do it.

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

It's what's sitting behind the guitar, before and after the refinish.

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Eric Philippsen · From: Central Florida USA

As prices of old instruments continue to rise buyers increasingly examine their potential purchases with greater care. Originality, desirablity, condition and price are the four rules, whether it be a vintage car, painting, old coin or pedal steel guitar. Vintage collectable pedal steels, in my opinion, have just crossed the threshold into a market of their own. (Again, witness as evidence the steadily increasing prices of Emmons P/P's and some Sho-Buds). However, all that being said, here's a good point that a car collector once told me. That is, one could own, say, a Jaguar XKE that had its four original, but flat, tires, the original non-working lever shocks and a non-functional original battery. Hey, it's all original, right? But you couldn't drive it. The point of that is, of course, that functionality enters into the picture, too.

Barry Gaskell · From: Cheshire, UK

Hi Bryant
It much depends on whether you are happy playing your guitar in it's original condition or whether you are really,really,really happy to play it once it has been redone.
Here are my pics before and after. I know which one I think looks better. I can't help smiling every time I look at it.

I'm not sure you can compare a 6o's strat or tele to a steel. They don't have a comparative cost/value differential.
Cheers
Barry

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