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Topic: Why do you do it? |
ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 29 Jul 2008 7:57 am |
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Why do "you" play with changing tunings, pedal and lever functions? What is this Holy Grail that you seek?
I ask this while sitting between three instruments that are very different from each other...A fourth is in another room. |
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Ulf Edlund
From:
Umeå, Sweden
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Posted 29 Jul 2008 8:09 am
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Just curoius 
_________________
1983 Emmons D10 SKH, Carter SD10, Nashville 112, Session 500, ProfexII, Lapsteels, GT-Beard reso, guitars of all kinds...
http://www.myspace.com/ulfedlund |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 29 Jul 2008 9:34 am
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I always considered myself somewhat of an experimenter. I was an early adopter (mid 70s) of E9/B6 on a U12; I've enjoyed playing with various new changes -- sometimes those that are 'in vogue' (e.g., Franklin pedal) and some that aren't.
It was interesting to discover a letter from Jerry Anderson confirming the setup on my second U12 MSA in 1976 and one from Bruce Zumsteg re: the setup on my ZumSteel I played from early 1980 until 2000. They are almost identical to my current guitars' setup. My main guitar is 8x8 on a single 12 and has one pedal and one lever that are designated 'experimental'.
Bottom line is that the 'holy grail' is probably inside your head more than it is within the tuning and pedal changes you use. I do believe that a skilled player can get more out of a Maverick than most can from a 10x10 D12.
Just my opinion.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 29 Jul 2008 9:50 am
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Because we can.
But seriously, this instrument will always be a puzzle about compromise. For grip ease, simplicity, and speed, we want a compact tuning based on a simple major chord, without a lot of diatonic stings complicating the grips. But that is only 3 notes out of the 7 diatonic scale notes, or the 12 chromatic notes. For melody work, accidentals, and more complicated chords, we want extra strings and pedals and knee levers. We like to have our left foot mostly over the A and B pedals (adding 2 more notes), and the other foot is occupied with the volume pedal. That still leaves 2 diatonic notes and 7 chromatic notes we need to get sometimes.
You only have two knees, which give us 5 convenient knee levers (a vertical on the volume pedal leg doesn't work well for most of us). If you put one note on each lever, you still have a couple of chromatic notes you can't get. We can get some extra notes on the extra strings, but that is offset by the fact that some of the pedals and levers are trying to get their extra notes on the same strings, and so we can't always get those notes independently. The upshot is that there are always some combinations of chromatic notes that we either can't get at all, or can't get in a convenient way.
Those who only play simple chords and melodies are not so bothered by this. But those who delve into more complicated stuff, are always a little frustrated by the things they have to give up, and the compromises they have to make, and are always wondering if they have made the right choices. |
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Twayn Williams
From:
Portland, OR
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Posted 29 Jul 2008 1:34 pm
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Always looking for a shorter path from point A to point B!
_________________
Primitive Utility Steel |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 29 Jul 2008 3:17 pm
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Early on, I did the "change every day" thing, and most of those (what I thought were, at the time) neat changes are long forgotten. When I had the opportunity to travel around and see lots of other steelers, I saw they usually had different setups. However, the really good ones could play fine, regardless of what changes they did, or did not have. Emmon's playing on "Steel Guitar Jazz" (with one knee lever), and Chalker's playing on "Big Hits On Big Steel" (with NO knee levers) was a real education for me. One day, I finally said "I'm going to keep my own (somewhat weird) setup, and just learn as best I can, and play and have a good time". I played for over 20 years without changing anything. Just for giggles, I added levers for the 1st string whole tone raise and the 6th string whole tone lower when I got my new steel. I try to use those changes at least once a night, but usually forget. 
Over 40 years has passed, and I'm still mesmerized by those two great albums by Buddy and Curly. They taught me that magic musical sounds truly come from the player, and not from a fancy instrument or setup.
All IMHO, of course. |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
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Posted 29 Jul 2008 4:26 pm
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There's a new technique surfacing... well, it's old actually, but it's experiencing a renaissance of sorts. It's called "moving the bar." 
You'd be surprised at all the notes you can get when you learn this relatively simply technique. 
I haven't changed my setup since the late 70's. The last significant change I can recall is when I had a discussion with Paul Franklin Jr. in 1977 and he suggested putting a D note on the first string of C6, "if you want to play in a minor key, or any kind of modern music." That was when I added the C-Db change on string 3 as well.
Yeah, I know... Herby Wallace has a G on top. Take it up with Paul, and spare me, okay?
Lloyd Green spoke wisely when he advised (and I'm paraphrasing LG), learn your tuning, learn the instrument, then learn music.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Jim Bates
From:
Alvin, Texas, USA
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Posted 29 Jul 2008 6:01 pm
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I agree with Herb. I experimented with many different versions of tunings and chopedants when I got my first pedal steel in 1969, a Sho-Bud Crossover. This guitar was very easy to change pedals around, so I did.
But before that, I did what so many of us 'vintage' players did - I learned to play a six string steel using the A, E, E7, C# min, C# min 7, C6 and C6/7 tunings in a Jerry Byrd course. Yes, we learned to move the bar to make the melody, and to move it fast!
Since early 1970, I settled on a E 13th tuning which for me is easy to play with or without pedals. The E9th chromatic tuning never became a friend of mine!
So, learn to move the bar around a lot. There is a fellow in the Houston area, Deacon Anderson who still plays regularly and only has a 6 string steel.
Thanx,
Jim |
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Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
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Posted 29 Jul 2008 6:29 pm
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Changing my setup has not really occurred to me. I'm more concerned with learning stuff within my copedent. I like the fact that I've settled on a setup that works for me.
Now....if I could just stop changing steels. 
_________________
Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
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Posted 29 Jul 2008 6:31 pm
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Steel players seem to want to make the guitar into a piano, where you can play any combination of any 10 notes you arbitrarily choose, simultaneously and in one position.
And 99% of us STILL wouldn't be able to play "4 Wheel Drive" the way it should be played.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 29 Jul 2008 7:33 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| ...the really good ones could play fine, regardless of what changes they did, or did not have. Emmon's playing on "Steel Guitar Jazz" (with one knee lever), and Chalker's playing on "Big Hits On Big Steel" (with NO knee levers) was a real education for me. |
And yet they both went on to experiment with lots of changes. I take Ed's original question to be more about why so many people do it, rather than about whether they should. Apparently a lot of people are not satisfied with a 6-string lap steel. Herb's piano analogy is getting to the question. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 29 Jul 2008 8:15 pm Why do we experiment with different tunings and changes?
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I recall reading an interview with Buddy Emmons, I very much regret not recalling where or when, where the interviewer asked him, looking upon his career, if he felt fulfilled, and Buddy replied (paraphrasing) that he deeply loved the instrument and wouldn't trade it for anything, but that his one regret was that he couldn't achieve the full range of musical possibilities he would ideally wish for because of the limitation in chord possibilities that the instrument imposed on him.
This from Buddy Emmons!!!
(Buddy, if I'm misquoting you, please forgive me!) |
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Rick Schmidt
From:
Prescott AZ, USA
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Posted 29 Jul 2008 9:48 pm
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I played one axe only, a D10 Bud w/ 8+2, for my first 25 years as a steel player. In a way I'm glad that I was limiting myself, correctly or incorrectly, and I really do love that steel like a member of my family. I think it really did give me a proper grounding as I was trying to learn the basics! However my inspiration level on that guitar was nowhere near as intense as it is now on my newer D12 w/10+6. I can't walk past that thing set up in my room and not sit down for at least a few minutes...usually much longer! It's a pretty addictive behavior I gotta admit. A video game/Rubiks cubelike thing with a really rewarding payoff.....sometimes. That's why I do it. 
The piano concept is a real one for me, only in my case I wanted a piano to be more like a steel. |
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Danny Bates
From:
Fresno, CA. USA
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Posted 29 Jul 2008 10:16 pm
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Herb, Your chord book for C6 is really great. It's been a huge help to me and I thank you for that. I had my Emmons push/pull neck set up with the exact copedent as your book. Fantastic!
I would just like to say that as I learn more and more of the C6 neck, I find myself creating sort of a "big band" type of block chord sound. I also play keyboards and guitar but the C6 neck has got me hooked big time and the big fat chords are perfectly laid out and suited for this old style.
Here's a link to a short clip of Dick Hymen explaining block chord style arranging for piano.
Dick was the piano player for Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespy during the Be-Bop days. I saw this the other day and I found it very enlightening. I hope I'm not drifting from the topic and I hope it's not boring for you guys.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-CI9FABTw4&feature=related |
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Paul Redmond
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 29 Jul 2008 11:50 pm
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I agree with Herb. 99% of the stuff you play DOES involve bar movement...and not the setup. I have told other steel peers in my area here that you can find over 90% of anything you want to play with 2 FP's and 2 KL's (3 KL's if you're using the 'short' Uni setup). And with the short Uni setup you have the advantage of being able to get into the '6th stuff' on the E9th neck without losing a thing on the E9th side. I admittedly do have KL's for some good stuff I choose to do outside of this generic mode, but I have them only for convenience. The 'basics' can always be had on 2 and 2 (or 3). Less is more!!!
PRR |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 30 Jul 2008 1:10 am
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| David Doggett wrote: |
| And yet they both went on to experiment with lots of changes. I take Ed's original question to be more about why so many people do it, rather than about whether they should. Apparently a lot of people are not satisfied with a 6-string lap steel. Herb's piano analogy is getting to the question. |
I'm more centered around the music than just the steel guitar. Nothing wrong with experimenting with changes, most players do it one time or another. I wish I could say that adding changes, moving harmonies, and more, fuller, chords makes the music better, but in a lot of cases - that's not happening. Sure, the moves and changes impress the heck out of steel players, and maybe some lead players, but the average listener is not impressed with chordal possibilities and fullness of harmony. Time and time again, John Q. Public nowadays is leaning towards simple stuff. If you're an old dude like me, it's easy to remember when more complex music made the charts (Hugo Montenegro, Percy Faith, Hugo Winterhalter, Ferrante & Teicher).
Herb's piano analogy seems to explain nicely what we're doing, but it really doesn't address the "why". |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
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Posted 30 Jul 2008 1:47 am
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Just to clarify, I don't want anyone to think that I've never experimented with different changes... as Donny said, most all of us do at one time or another..., but those experiments most often have been put into my personal dustpan of history.
And I do have between 6 and 8 knee levers on my guitars, 6 being the indispensible number. Four changes on E9, four on C6. These are the changes I've kept since the mid-70's.
Funny thing is, when I received back the guitar that had been stolen from me in 1988 (8p/8k), I realized that there were BUNCHES of changes I had Emmons put on it that I'd totally forgotten about. Things I'd NEVER load up on a PP nowadays.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Ulf Edlund
From:
Umeå, Sweden
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Posted 30 Jul 2008 2:43 am
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I understand that it's concidered somewhat politicly correct to look down on amateur players for exploring their instrument. Always referring to some of the greats like Buddy, Lloyd, Chalker etc.
Well correct me if i'm wrong, but theese guys are genius, and of course they do everything better than us mortal, but i can't see what it has to do with a player trying to figure out his or her preferred setup?
I've been playing for about ten years, and during that time i've gone through a few copedent changes.
Not one time have i been under the impression it would make me play like the masters, but i like to know what's the most comfortable for me when i play my instrument. Is that so odd?
If it makes me an amateur geek, ...well i'm proud to be one 
_________________
1983 Emmons D10 SKH, Carter SD10, Nashville 112, Session 500, ProfexII, Lapsteels, GT-Beard reso, guitars of all kinds...
http://www.myspace.com/ulfedlund |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 30 Jul 2008 2:55 am
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| Herb Steiner wrote: |
There's a new technique surfacing... well, it's old actually, but it's experiencing a renaissance of sorts. It's called "moving the bar."
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Mike Perlowin reminded me that it's 'pedal steel GUITAR', that being the most important thing, with the thing in your left hand next, and lastly pedals.
Beginners like me tend to approach it as a pedal machine--yes, something that can have all the chords a piano has. It appears at first that there are so many possibilities with every pedal/lever combination. Reality sets in.
So it's a process and not a grail, even if it were a grail at first. The process has been finding the most ergonomic and intuitive use of what's available.
For me, of course. I haven't made any changes in a year.
But sadly, I understand Danny's clip of Dick Hyman more than I do pedal steel.... |
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Bill Dobkins
From:
Rolla Missouri, USA
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Posted 30 Jul 2008 6:39 am
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The most important thing for me was understanding the mechanics (what makes it tick) so to speak.
I too love to expirment, and in doing so I've found
some neat tunings. Some would say my copedent is off the wall but it works for me and thats what counts.
_________________
Custom Rittenberry SD10
Boss Katana 100 Amp
Positive Grid Spark amp
BJS Bars
Z~Legend Pro,Custom Tele
Honor our Vet's.
Now pass the gravy. |
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Junior Knight
From:
Eustace Texas..paddle faster..I hear Banjos...
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Posted 30 Jul 2008 6:48 am
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I have found...for me anyway...that when I go from a D-10 e9th...Bb6th to a S-12 Bb helps me stay out of a rut. It makes me think..which is something I'm not used to!! 
_________________
2006 Msa S-12 “milly” 8 & 5
. Peavey Nashville 1-12 Goodrich pedals & matchbro.Steeler Choice seats.. that is all..(for now) lol
www.msapedalsteels.com
texsteelman2@yahoo.com
Jagwire Strings
Facebook/ Junior Knight, Steel Guitar |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 30 Jul 2008 7:26 am
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Add all the pedals and knees you can. It's good to have spare parts in case you break down.
I would think that you practice until playing the PSG becomes like running you don't think about it you just do it.
Most PSG players I know can only use 3 pedals and 3 knee levers and the volume pedal on the E9 without having to think about it.
No amount of practice seemed to help them use that 4th pedal and 4th and 5th knee levers without having to think.
Too much thinking has got to hurt your playing. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 30 Jul 2008 2:48 pm
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Actually, I have 4 pedals and 6 knee levers on my E9th neck and I can (and do) use all of them without having to "think" about them. The "core" of my E9th tuning (3 pedals and 5 knees) has remained constant for 37 years. Added the 4th pedal and 6th knee 9 years ago to add the "Franklin" changes.
I have been making some changes to my c6th setup lately. I have 5 pedals and 5 knee levers on C6th. I'm learning some songs from the material John Hughey has out. He uses 2 knee levers I didn't have and I had 2 levers that I could afford to give up. So I added those changes. The stuff he does with those levers are some of the sounds I was seeking on C6th, but I could never figure out.
So, I basically change only to expand on what I have so I can expand my library of playing options. |
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