What is "Country", exactly?

Roger Edgington · Post by **Roger Edgington** » 8 Jul 2008 7:23 pm

There is plenty of the real stuff, new and old, on Willie's Place channel 13 on XM radio 24/7. A lot of the newer cuts orginate right here in Texas, not Nashville. They even play cuts from our latest CD.

Joe Drivdahl · Post by **Joe Drivdahl** » 8 Jul 2008 7:51 pm

Roger,
Thats good to hear. Maybe Texas will become the new Nashville.

Get your C6 licks honed down folks. We're going to Texas.

I actually thought about applying for a job with BNSF in Ft. Worth, but I think I am too old to move to the big city now.

Joe

Jim Robbins · Post by **Jim Robbins** » 8 Jul 2008 8:10 pm

Interesting thread.

One possibility is that our notions of "genre" are conditioned by some specific developments in reproduction and marketing of music that gave people a hitherto unknown access to a variety of musics. I'm talking about the development of publishing and cheap sheet music, and then recording and radio, from the mid 18th century to the end of the 20th. These media were capital intensive (i.e., expensive), so there was a relatively limited amount of stuff that could get reproduced and marketed, and it was marketed to target markets -- i.e., social groups differentiated by class, race and ethnicity. (Hence, "race records", "hillbilly music" etc). Also, cheaper travel and greater urbanization during the same period brought about greater migration of itinerant musicians and styles they brought with them, such as "gypsy" music, polkas, blues.

So prior to the mid 18th century, the concept of a bunch of mutually coexisting musical genres relating to class or ethnicity didn't really exist.* Now, with incredibly cheap reproduction and homogenizing of capital intensive markets (mainly TV and Hollywood), that 150 year window of "genre" which we think of as the way to perceive and understand music is disappearing. Which doesn't mean good music is disappearing -- there was plenty of good music before the mid 1700s.

Whenever I hear stuff about "what is true Country", I am reminded of a musician I knew in Cuba talking about good old country cooking, & how it reminded him of green fields & fresh air. Unfortunately (from my point of view, since we were about to eat that good old country cooking), he wasn't talking about fried chicken; he was talking about goat tripe stew.

*Footnote: prior to the mid 1700s there was certainly awareness of "national" styles in some circles but it wasn't quite the same as the cheap Schottisches, mazurkas, contradanzas etc that were sold later on. Sorry about putting a footnote in a post ...

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 8 Jul 2008 8:34 pm

Keep your eyes on your own paper...

Clyde Mattocks · Post by **Clyde Mattocks** » 8 Jul 2008 8:37 pm

Those of us who love it really don't agree on exactly what it is, but I'm reminded of the lady who brings in a fiddle to a dealer to be appraised. The
dealer says, "This fiddle is worth about $25.00".
The lady snatches it back and retorts, "Humph, you
obviously don't know a fine violin when you see one."
The dealer says, "Probably not, lady, but I sure know
junk when I see it."

Maybe we don't know what country is, but we sure know what it isn't!

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 8 Jul 2008 9:52 pm

Bo Legg wrote:When is a song Country?
10. When you can't call it anything else.

End.
Of.
Story.

Tobie Schalkwyk · Post by **Tobie Schalkwyk** » 8 Jul 2008 11:23 pm

Tell me a (nice or sad) story in a song with PSG accompanyment and I'll call it nothing else but Country.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 9 Jul 2008 1:13 am

Mark Eaton wrote: If not getting out much means that I'm not hip to the label thing (I guess the only one regarding Skynyrd that I can recall was "Southern Rock," since I pay no attention to the modern Lynyrd Skynyrd "franchise" as it were) then I'm fine with being being ignorant...

"Modern Lynyrd Skynard 'franchise'"? Uhh, I believe that calling them a "franchise" qualifies as "labeling" too!

No, you're not ignorant, Mark, but you have to realize that there's nothing wrong with labeling groups and stars in the music industry. It's actually one of the foundations of the industry (country charts, jazz charts, pop charts, etc.), and darn near everyone does it. Of course, if someone doesn't want to label an act (for whatever reason), that's fine. But they should also realize that others still have the right to do so. There's no shame in having preferences and wanting to convey those preferences to others.

Roual Ranes · Post by **Roual Ranes** » 9 Jul 2008 3:45 am

My 2 Cents:
Country is a "style"..........listen to Hank Williams' "Hey Goodlooking" then Bill Haley's "Rock Around The Clock". The two songs can be interchanged in style. Therefore, if not style - Hank Williams was the Daddy of Rock And Roll......not Bill Haley.

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 9 Jul 2008 5:05 am

Roual,

I would only substitute Hanks's "Move it on over" for "Hey good lookin'": much closer to The Haley tune, I think.

Dan

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 9 Jul 2008 5:23 am

They're country rock, southern rock, swamp rock or blues-rock

...and the comment about the names overlapping is hardly true.

It's interesting seeing this thread on the steel forum and watching how oddly some things are perceived. 6-stringers would never classify "blues-rock" and "country-rock" as being even close. "Swamp rock" and "Southern rock" are another two totally different categories in the 6-string world.

And I heartily agree - Lynyrd Skynyrd is a band I have NEVER heard called "country-rock" until reading this thread.

This isn't meant to be critical, sarcastic, or insulting - but it might do a lot of steel players a ton of good two do two things; 1) subscribe to Guitar Player or Vintage Guitar Magazine (I don't suggest Guitar World because it's far more geared towards the metal and hard-rock crowd) and 2) visit some other forums - The Fender Forum and TDPRI (Telecaster Discussion Page) are two that have a wide-range of members. Sometimes I think the somewhat narrow-focus here can skew perceptions of the industry as a whole. None of the 6-string mags or forums are perfect, but they DO have a little more variety and you might...or might not...learn what some of these categories mean to other musicians - something that might help finding the right gig...or help avoid the WRONG ones.

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 9 Jul 2008 5:53 am

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Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 9 Jul 2008 6:10 am

FWIW, I too have never seen or heard Lynyrd Skynyrd referred to as "country rock" (or anything other than "Southern rock") anywhere except here. In fact, outside of the SGF, I'd say the term "country rock" is one of the less ambiguous genre categories, used, in my experience, only about bands of the Sixties and Seventies like the late-period Byrds (early-period they were "folk rock"), Flying Burrito Brothers, Poco, Pure Prairie League, Eagles, etc. Anybody doing that kind of music today would now probably be termed "alt country".

David D.'s point about "country" being what was playing on the "country" radio during one's formative years probably holds true in many cases. But I don't fit that description, as I never once heard a country radio station until I was 32, in 1983, but I have very definite feelings of what's country and what isn't, which are not dissimilar from many (most) of the feelings expressed by others here who have that type of background.

Theresa Galbraith · Post by **Theresa Galbraith** » 9 Jul 2008 6:14 am

I've always considered LS as Country Rock. It's good!

Bob Knight · Post by **Bob Knight** » 9 Jul 2008 6:51 am

THIS is COUNTRY Music at it's best!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDhpKit5 ... re=related

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 9 Jul 2008 6:55 am

What is "Country", exactly?

Ain't no "exactly" about it. Any genre label means precisely what any person or group of people want it to mean. There are no brain police to enforce any particular definition. If you want to say "Hey, you're wrong.", fine. But that doesn't make it true. There are only loose agreements, and anybody or any other group can break from that and form their own definitions - and they frequently do.

The other thing is that there are a lot of levels one can look at any label like this. At one level, it's just a marketing tool, to try to match product to intended audiences. At another level, it's a musicological categorization, if you're into that kind of thing. At another level, it often signifies a personal lifestyle, ethnic, world, or even political view. To me, "country" means much more than a Ray Price shuffle - people who say they're "country fans" do tend to lean to a particular world view. Similarly for hip-hop, reggae, blues, metal, or many other popular music styles.

Within all these loose categorizations, there are subcategories. I know people who insist that the only "real" country music is purely acoustic along the lines of the Carter Family and Jimmy Rogers, and that the "modern electric stuff" is something else - honkytonk or whatever. They scoff at the concept that Olivia Newton-John (and the rest of the disco-country of the 70s and 80s) and Kid Rock (and the rest of the rock-country of the present day) have anything to do with country music.

All this speaks to the concept of a culture, where the prevailing popular music is a component.

I have to confess, I've never heard anybody outside this forum refer to Skynyrd as anything but Southern Rock. But in reality, they helped architect a lot of what is now called country music, so I don't see how it's inaccurate to call them country rock, rock country, new country, or anything else like that you want to.

Of course, these are just my opinions. You are free to disagree and that's fine. Of course, you'd be wrong (just kiddin').

Joe Drivdahl · Post by **Joe Drivdahl** » 9 Jul 2008 6:59 am

I don't know that it makes a huge difference where we classifiy these bands. I mean, I always though that "Southern Rock" was a stupid handle since Rock was born in the South. But they needed a term to distinguish American Rock from British Rock, I guess.

I haven't heard the term 'Country-Rock' in a long time... I wasn't sure it still existed since Country has "evolved."

The reason I said Sykynrd was categorized as Country-Rock is:

I remember a gig back in the early 1980s when my band and I were booked in a place we did not belong. I kind of figured that by the row of Harleys outside the place when we pulled in. Sure enough, we went in and the place was full of nothing but bikers and biker babes. But we set up and started playing our 'Counrty' stuff and the bikers just sat there and looked at us... Total silence after each song.

After listening to us for a few songs, one biker yelled, "Do you at least know any Country-Rock like Skynyrd?" I started playing "Sweet Home" and the bikers started dancing.

Whether they have ever been classified by anyone else but me as "Country-Rock", Skynyrd has been Country-Rock to me ever since.

Joe

Theresa Galbraith · Post by **Theresa Galbraith** » 9 Jul 2008 7:19 am

To me it's like Charlie Daniels! People consider him Southern Rock or Country Rock?

I personally, don't care what you call it!

If I like it I buy it!

To clerify, I've never bought either artist music. But, it's not to say I hate it. I appreciate what they've accomplished with their music!

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 9 Jul 2008 7:40 am

FWIW, I too have never seen or heard Lynyrd Skynyrd referred to as "country rock" (or anything other than "Southern rock") anywhere except here.

Honest guys, I'm not making this stuff up as I go along.

From a Virgin Radio, no less...

Here's the Vintage Video to country rock legends Lynyrd Skynyrd's classic track, 'Sweet Home Alabama'. Rock on!

Or this one, from yahoo entertainment...

Official site for the classic country rock band Lynyrd Skynyrd. Includes a timeline, tour info, downloads, discography, and merchandise. ...

Or maybe this one from ask.com...

As one of the greatest country-rock bands to come out of the '70s, Lynyrd Skynyrd remain legendary thanks to all-time classics like "Sweet Home Alabama" and ...

How 'bout this one, from CDUniverse...

Various Artists Best Of Country Rock music CD album $6.29 in stock at CD Universe, Track Listing Sweet Home Alabama - Lynyrd Skynyrd; All My Love - Joe...

Point is, I could go on with examples forever. Just because you've never heard anyone classify a group in a certain way doesn't mean that no one else does. 'Course, there's always the possibility that someone's wrong, and it could certainly be me. But if it is, I got an awful lot of company.

Like Dave Mudgett says, "Any genre label means precisely what any person or group of people want it to mean. There are no brain police to enforce any particular definition. If you want to say "Hey, you're wrong.", fine. But that doesn't make it true. There are only loose agreements, and anybody or any other group can break from that and form their own definitions - and they frequently do.

Everything is point-of-view.

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 9 Jul 2008 7:46 am

Soul and Blues from Nashville and Texas, where the horns are replaced by fiddle and steel?

JJ

Pete Cormier · Post by **Pete Cormier** » 9 Jul 2008 7:57 am

I'm no lawyer on what is ,are what is not country.But i can say that we have the same small problem in this isolated part
of south la. with what is cajun and whats not.although the younger musicians are playing and singing in the french language,there are those who say(IT'S NOT THE REAL THING)... Well ,i'm of the schoolthat says they are right, but anything ,a business ,a culture and its
music cannot remain static are it will eventually die out.It must be dynamic and everchanging to survive in some form.
JUST MY OPINON.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 9 Jul 2008 8:19 am

... but anything, a business, a culture and its music cannot remain static are it will eventually die out. It must be dynamic and everchanging to survive in some form.

I completely agree.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 9 Jul 2008 8:26 am

Brint Hannay wrote:FWIW, I too have never seen or heard Lynyrd Skynyrd referred to as "country rock" (or anything other than "Southern rock") anywhere except here.

Seems clear enough I was only stating my own experience (with a "FWIW" to boot).

I think Dave M.'s point explains what Donny refers to. Because the "country music" industry has embraced the "Southern rock" sound since the Eighties, the word "country" has gotten tagged onto LS retroactively. I remember some Skynyrd fans of my acquaintance back in the day scorning the Allman Brothers because they played that "country"-sounding stuff.

It's mildly interesting to discuss these labels, but everybody has their own ideas about 'em, and that's fine.

Mark Lind-Hanson · Post by **Mark Lind-Hanson** » 9 Jul 2008 9:26 am

It's... all... in... the... HATS...

Ken Levesque · Post by **Ken Levesque** » 9 Jul 2008 9:51 am

Mr. Bob Knight,

When you wrote" COUNTRY Music at it's best!!".....
You sure were not kidding.Just Luv it and I always will !!

Ken

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