Do They Really Sound Like A Push Pull Emmons?

[Terry Sneed]

When The Used Ones Start Popping Up I Will Try One. I Like The sound of the Mullen.

That's the only way I'll ever be able to afford a G2, and by the time used ones become available, I may not be here.

I do like my RP though, but I'd sure like to sit down behind a G2 that I could call mine.

Terry

[Duane Reese]

Let me humbly add that in my experience another common mis-adjustment is that of; not timing the pedal stop (at the bar) precisely to the full body contact point of a primary raise. Over time this can produce a lot of stresses on the system, and can even "notch" or crush the the finger contact point against the body.

That is exactly, precisely why you need compression springs. The shaft/pedal stop screw is supposed to be set so that the shaft actually will rotate slightly past the finger-body contact point, and the compression spring allows this to happen without excessive stress. This is also essential for one to be able to tune the pulls from the screws at the endplate.

There are very few places you don't have enough room and/or the raise/lower action is too long to accommodate a compression spring, and one is the 4th string raise of the C-pedal. What I'd do there is make that full-step raise a floating pull, so the finger almost but not quite reaches the body, and the final destination of the pull is governed by the shaft stop (tuned at the keyhead with raise engaged, in the usual fashion).

The gouging of the backs of the lower fingers sounds like the lever stop was not happening - Ouch! What was going on with whatever guitar that was, John?

[Dave Ristrim]

Ah, yes! Push Pull is good. Very good indeed.

[john widgren]

Yes,yes Duane. Although there are those who are of the opinion that compression springs are not necessary, I do not share that view. I tend to use the minimum amount of spring that will work properly.

I generally find that critics of PP's (the few)have never experienced the pleasures of a well set up guitar.

I don't recall exactly what the issue was with the gouged lower fingers,(might have been a spring/stop issue?) but I do recall that it was sorted out and corrected.

[Brad Malone]

Cardboard ears!

This is the ideal site for those who have that affliction. The one and only Cardboard Record company. Products designed purely for those with cardboard ears. All frequencies above 10Kh have been electronically removed. <<

Hey Ken, Is that what they call "RAP music"?...selling pretty good, the last I heard.

[Brad Malone]

If the Emmons PP REALLY is as desireable as many think, why isn't it still a standard production model?<<

Good question...maybe they were too difficult to produce for a profit..even Emmons said they lost the sound by 1990, the time he left the company.

[Brint Hannay]

I've seen the "too unprofitable to make" theory advanced and debated here a number of times. I have no real acquaintance with the actual construction of the push/pull, but it's hard for me to imagine there's that much difference from all-pull guitars.

While many of the parts are distinctive, every company has to manufacture, or have manufactured, a similar collection of distinctive parts don't they? Cabinets, end castings, pedal racks, cross rods, bell cranks, changer finger parts, pedal and pull rods, pedals, levers, brackets...Different sizes and shapes for each maker, some more different than others, but pretty much the same list of parts types for all makes, including the p/p, isn't it?

Putting it all together may take more time and/or skill for a p/p, I don't know, but even so, how much more?

Currently there are extremely well-made all-pull steels that sell for (let's say a D-10) $3,500, but there are people willing to pay $5,000 or even $6,500 for other makes similarly configured because, for whatever reason, they find them more desirable. Can the cost of parts and/or labor to build a p/p really be so great as to drive the price even higher, so high as to be prohibitive of sales, if a company (e.g. Emmons) committed to a p/p design as its product? With what appears to be a significant (in steel guitar terms) market pool of potential customers who consider the p/p the best of the best?

[Ken Byng]

Cardboard ears!

This is the ideal site for those who have that affliction. The one and only Cardboard Record company. Products designed purely for those with cardboard ears. All frequencies above 10Kh have been electronically removed. <<

Hey Ken, Is that what they call "RAP music"?...selling pretty good, the last I heard.

Brad - yes RAP with a silent C.

[Randy Gilliam]

Ford Came Back with The Mustang Chev Bringing The Camaro And DodgeIs Bringing The Challenger . Maybe They Will Bring The Original PP Back. Promat Makes Them and They Sound Great. Randy.

[Brad Malone]

Hey Brint, I agree with everything you say but there are probably too few people willing to go the price that would make the PP a profitable operation or it would be happening. There also appears to be another factor in the equation and that is: that a lot of poeple say the PP's are difficult to maintain and make undercarriage changes....a lot of people just want to play an instrument not build and rebuild them.....if it isn't happening there is always a reason and that reason is that it just isn't worth the time and effort for most people.

[Brad Malone]

Hey Randy, Promat, sells about 2 to 4 guitars a year, I doubt that PP's will ever come back unless you could make them in a lower wage country which I highly doubt; but what do I know?

[Bobbe Seymour]

Duane Reece, Yes, I remember "Mr. Sho-Bud", and as I'm sure you know, I built the guitar from a body that David Jackson gave me from my vast parts collection of Sho-Bud and Emmons P-P inventories.

Shot Jackson loved the guitar when he saw it, but wanted to kill me for putting Emmons P-P parts on it.

I loved the guitar, I feel the ratios still need some tweeking and the guide for the lowering tuning wrenches need aligning, but this may have already been done. A minor point.

This is indeed a great guitar with some wonderful stories to go with it. I'd love to have it back.
Bobbe

[Bobbe Seymour]

By the way, it sounds great, however, even with the P-P fingers from Emmons, it does not sound like an Emmons. Proving that the changer system is NOT where the tone comes from. This was just one of my expermental efforts.

Bobbe

[Duane Reese]

I know just what you mean, Bobbe. I myself had a chance to play it, and work on the mechanics, and although it sounded good, it was a different sound. I also noticed that no matter how hard a person could try, the amount of space under the hood made it hard to get the p/p undercarriage to work the same way it does in an Emmons.

[Bobbe Seymour]

Exactely Duane!

[Randy Gilliam]

Bump For a Pretty Good Topic. Lots Off Input On This One. Randy.

[Damir Besic]

Hey Randy, Promat, sells about 2 to 4 guitars a year, I doubt that PP's will ever come back unless you could make them in a lower wage country which I highly doubt; but what do I know?

Promat sells 2-4 guitars per year in US, but they are based in Europe and that is their main market.They just sold another S-10 to Slovenia and got an order from Ireland and about those guitars we here on the forum don`t know about...and btw..Emmons stopped making p/p because they are expencive to make, not every guitar is for everybody...if player doesn`t hear the difference in tone from Emmons p/p and some other steel, then he should buy the cheapest guitar there is and save himself some cash....some people don`t care about the speed ,so they don`t buy corvette, they are happy with their Kia....

Db

[Randy Gilliam]

Damir I Owned a D10 Black Promat for 2 Weeks And The Owner Really did Not want too Sell It So I Sold It Back to Him. It Was The Best Sounding Non Emmons I Have Ever Played . They Are Really Built Good And Play Smooth. Thanks Randy.

[Damir Besic]

thanks Randy, yes, they are really nice guitars, expensive tho, but I think ,more than anything it hurts exchange rate of dollar right now, we have to remember that Euro used to be 1.1 dollar and now is 1.5 so guitar that used to cost 2000 Euros was $2200 now costs $3200 plus shipping and everything else.There is few of us who play Promat guitars and other than the tone and quality, also is about having something handbuilt custom for me, I like the fact that my guitar was built for me and nobody else, by hand and it took almost a year to get it done, same thing is with my Stelling Red Fox I had, I ordered it and it took a year to make the instrument, but when it was done it was my instrument.I guess it is what we would call, a boutique guitar.I love everything about my Promat and wouldn`t play anything else but that doesn`t mean that there isn`t other great guitars out there, it`s all about what players likes and wants.

db

[Darryl Logue]

What is the one variable in any guitar or steel all parts manufactured to the same specs? Why does one, as great players have said, the notes seem to jump out? Could it be the wood ? Find some old growth tight and straight grained maple send it to your builder you might be surprised with the result. Just a theory.

[Donny Hinson]

btw..Emmons stopped making p/p because they are expencive to make...

Nope, they simply stopped making them because more players wanted an all-pull guitar.

[Brint Hannay]

btw..Emmons stopped making p/p because they are expencive to make...

Nope, they simply stopped making them because more players wanted an all-pull guitar.

I raised this question earlier in this thread (15 posts back on this page)--that is:

ARE they more expensive to make? If so, why? If anyone has actual concrete knowledge on this, I'm sure a lot of others are as curious as I am about it--clue us in!

[Danny Bates]

I don't think a push/pull is much more costly to make.

I think Emmons decided to quit making them because everybody figured that having splits is more important than having THAT tone. Plus they probably had too many different setup requests and instead of figuring that stuff out and putting it together, they took the quick and easy road and made it so anybody could do changes they want on their guitar.

It's a give and take thing....to each his own.

[Damir Besic]

I know, I like my organ the best

like Liberaci (SP?) he was good on piano but he sucked on organ..

Db