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Topic: E9 Meantone, JI, ET, a book I read about temperament |
Marc Jenkins
From:
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 31 May 2008 12:37 pm |
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I was on vacation for most of May and picked up a book in Portland's Powell Books (the greatest book store ever?) called 'How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (and Why You Should Care)' by Ross W. Duffin. I see no reference to it here on the forum. It was published some time last year.
Anyway, it's an interesting (but dorky) read (BAD cartoon jokes in the first couple chapters, mainly puns on 'temperament', etc.) and makes a pretty strong case against ET for almost all applications. Duffin's a professor of Music, and REALLY knows his stuff. He recommends (only in an orchestral universe, as these sorts of books always seem to exist) that if musicians all tuned to sixth-comma meantone, things would be better off than just intonation or ET. I wasn't aware, scientifically, of the problems associated with JI beyond pure fifths (that arise with thirds) and especially sevenths and any other chord tones beyond a triad.
I see a couple references to meantone, mainly by b0b, when I search the forum. Has anyone had much luck with meantone for E9? I used a table in Duffin's book to determine the tuning offset for sixth-comma meantone for my copedant, and miraculously EVERY SINGLE NOTE lined up mathematically. What I mean is that the offsets I calculated all checked out according to the chart, at appropriate intervals (ie a diminished third was a comma lower than a minor third etc.) where just intonation DOESN'T check out in this way. It looks like the problems I find with F-lever chords might be eliminated too?
I play in a band with an acoustic guitar, and either accordian or Wurlitzer electric piano. We play lots of extended chords, so often I run into problems with JI. ET doesn't make me happy, so I'm looking at the meantone as a happy medium?
I haven't actually TRIED this on my steel yet, as my band-mate has borrowed my Peterson tuner. I plan to give it a go very soon, and I'll update on the progress. Any thoughts and suggestions are welcomed, of course. |
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Tracy Sheehan
From:
Fort Worth, Texas, USA
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Posted 31 May 2008 1:12 pm Tuning.
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Just curious.Doesn t any one tune by ear any more?I don't see how any one could play or sing if they don't have the ear for it.Which few so called singers now days have.Some how i can't picture the violin section in an orchestra using elctronic tuners. |
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Marc Jenkins
From:
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 31 May 2008 1:17 pm
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If you tune by ear, there will likely be problems with some intervals. For example, if a string quartet tunes by ear, they will tune their fifths to be 'perfect'. If the open A string on a violin and the open C on a viola play at the same time, it will sound quite bad (there is a passage from a Bach piece that is famous for this necessary interval).
I'm just trying to find something that works in as many situations as possible, including quick setups on small stages. |
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John Steele (deceased)
From:
Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 31 May 2008 1:54 pm
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Marc, I was wondering if you could elaborate on the meaning of "sixth comma meantone".
Interesting.
-John |
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Marc Jenkins
From:
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 31 May 2008 3:10 pm
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John,
Sixth-comma meantone is a tuning system whereby the fifths are tempered by 1/6 of the comma difference between Pythagorean and pure major thirds. Previously, there were fourth-comma and fifth-comma. Fourth-comma allowed for perfect thirds, but the fifths were only good in 8 of the keys.
A comma is a discrepancy between 2 of the same note arrived at by different means. For example, if you cycle pure fifths starting from a C, and cycle pure thirds from the same C, you will have two different C notes when the cycles are complete. The difference is called a comma. The size of a comma varies depending on the temperament of the fifths and thirds. |
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Dickie Whitley
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Posted 31 May 2008 4:14 pm Just Ordered...
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| Marc, your discussion of this book has piqued my interest so I just ordered this from BAM. I have read so much on this forum about tuning this way and that, pros and cons, so maybe this can add some "fresh air" to my overloaded brain. Looking forward to getting and reading this. Thanks for the tip! |
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Alex McCollough
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 31 May 2008 5:34 pm
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| There's another book by Stuart Isacoff called "Temperament: The Idea That Solved Music's Greatest Riddle" that is very interesting and well written. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 31 May 2008 5:49 pm
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Books are good. But remember that you can read all about temperament for free on the internet if you Google meantone and comma for example. You can even hear what they sound like on the Web. Sturgeon's Law applies, but then it applies to books as well.
I've been tuning meantone, approx 1/6 comma, for a coon's age. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 31 May 2008 8:08 pm
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I tune my C6th to meantone, but I've never tried it on E9th. The math works. I'm just not sure how cabinet drop would affect it. My E9th is closer to JI, and I compensate the F# string to resolve the difference. Since it works well I have no incentive to change it.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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John Steele (deceased)
From:
Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 31 May 2008 10:18 pm
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The reason I think this is interesting is because of the fact that I've been going ET the last few years, and, strangely enough, the thirds have become tolerable to my ear, but the thing that's really bugging me are the fifths. Go ahead, tell me I'm weird.
-John
p.s. I've read Stuart Isacoff's "Temperament", it's a good, thought-provoking read. |
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Tracy Sheehan
From:
Fort Worth, Texas, USA
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Posted 1 Jun 2008 5:21 pm
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| John Steele wrote: |
The reason I think this is interesting is because of the fact that I've been going ET the last few years, and, strangely enough, the thirds have become tolerable to my ear, but the thing that's really bugging me are the fifths. Go ahead, tell me I'm weird.
-John
p.s. I've read Stuart Isacoff's "Temperament", it's a good, thought-provoking read. |
Want to talk about 5ths.As a steel player has to tune his 3rds (I did by ear)to be as close to an in tune sound as i could get.I also play fiddle and the 5ths are a problem on violins.
Playing double stop with two notes made with one finger can be tricky.In my younger days before i was aware of this bet i moved the bridge fifty times trying to get the 1st and 5th to sound in tune together.
I call this tempermental tuning.LOL BTW.This is one of the curses of being born with perfect pitch.All the musicians i talked to in my career who had perfect pitch all agreed it is a curse.Nothing sounds in tune,which it isn't.You learn to live with it.. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 1 Jun 2008 8:03 pm
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Gad - reading all that math gives me a headache!
I'll use my good ol' chromatic tuner to get close and then tweak by ear. Some initial reference and then ears have worked for about 40 years for some unknown reason.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 1 Jun 2008 8:40 pm
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Some artistic people aren't good at math. Myself, I love the math of music. I find it to be almost transcendental - as beautiful as the music itself.
Understanding music enhances my appreciation of it. Music theory is an infinite subject. You can never learn everything about it. That's how I see it anyway. Each of us has our own way of visualizing music, though. None of them are wrong.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 2 Jun 2008 9:24 am
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Well b0b..
Some of them really have to be wrong, or it wouldn't be "music"...
I'm just glad that none of mine are..
I think the best couple things I've read on the subject WRT to PSG were written here.
Mr E offered that trying a "Zeroed" third in all it's ringing glory and THEN adding a heavy fifth turns it into a whole different, more "melodic" chord.
Even in "fuzz tone" a person can hear a blending of overtones.
Mathematically, playing each and every interval to it's "perfection" "to the ear", is a TOTAL nightmare with the simplest of songs and the most complex copedants.
Probably why only Lloyd Green could sound as "In Tune" as he did with the reported "tuning chart" taken from his personal tuning. He's a Genius. Other notable players "using it" IMHO were not nearly as successful. JMHO.
I have always maintained that practice amounting to either years or hard knocks, or an initial immersion in "Equal Temperament" like Infant Swimming is the best way to accommodate one's mojo and maintaining an ability to not just "endure" but "enjoy" "comma music", and not be stuck with a "Harpsichord Ear".
A PSG is the most challenging instrument WRT intonation, and IMHO the most beautiful as it comes the closest to incorporating dissonance.
I'm thinking that when I start Hormone Therapy, several things are going to happen.
One of the least known side effects is developing an aversion to Piano Music, and hearing Thirds in an Improper Way.
I hope not.
EJL |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 2 Jun 2008 9:48 am
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| Quote: |
Some of them really have to be wrong, or it wouldn't be "music"...
I'm just glad that none of mine are..
I think the best couple things I've read on the subject WRT to PSG were written here. |
I guess you've never listened to John Cage.  Seriously, after a week-long Cage immersion on my daily commute some years ago, everything sounded like music to me. Fascinating!
What's "WRT"? I haven't heard that acronym in this discussion.
Welcome back, Eric!
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 2 Jun 2008 10:08 am
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"With Regard To".
Thanks b0b.
I can get busy Living.
You know the rest.
EJL |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 2 Jun 2008 2:54 pm
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While I feel a lot like Jim Sliff on this, myself lacking the patience to crunch the math from scratch, I AM curious--
Could one of you who use this "meantone" tuning give examples of what the settings for the standard E9th strings and changes are in "electronic tuner speak", e.g. "Bs tuned to 4xx.x, C#s to 4xx.x, etc.", or "Bs x cents flat/sharp of 440, C#s x cents flat/sharp, etc."? |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 2 Jun 2008 3:09 pm
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| Tab: |
lower open raise
F# 0 G +12.5
D +10 D# -7.5
G# -5 A +7.5
D# -7.5 E +5 F -12.5 F# 0
A# -10 B +2.5 C# -2.5
G# -5 A +7.5
F# 0
D# -7.5 E +5 F -12.5
C# -2.5 D +10
B +2.5 C# -2.5 |
This puts the major thirds at 390 cents, and the fourths at 502.5 cents. It's pretty sweet, actually.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Jim Peters
From:
St. Louis, Missouri, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 2 Jun 2008 3:49 pm
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A year or so ago, I did a lot of internet research on JI, and listened to MANY examples of JI music. I never could get used to the sound, though I tried. JP
_________________
Carter,PV,Fender |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 2 Jun 2008 4:32 pm
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All good vocal acapella music is JI<sup>*</sup>, as is most orchestral music. What's weird is the "microtonal" JI music that deliberately inserts notes from outside the western scales.
<sup>*</sup>JI = Just Intonation
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Dickie Whitley
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Posted 2 Jun 2008 5:25 pm Just tried this...
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| I set my strobRack for the 1/6 comma meantone and tuned just the 10 strings and the A&B pedals. I think I like the way it sounds. The major grips sound like they "blend" better (or maybe just my ears). I'll get the all the pedals and knees cued up sometime this week and give it a run. Maybe I can live with this one. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 2 Jun 2008 5:38 pm
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| Quote: |
| I've been going ET the last few years, and, strangely enough, the thirds have become tolerable to my ear, but the thing that's really bugging me are the fifths. Go ahead, tell me I'm weird. |
No, I understand that quite easily. Just like a driver with a noisy muffler gets "used" to the noise, our ears may gradually get used to things being out of tune (excess beats), and pretty soon we grow to either ignore it, or not to pay as much attention to it. There are a couple of well-known steelers (whose names I'll not mention here) whom I can no longer stand to listen to for more than a few minutes - just too many beats nowadays in their chords. I also believe that the lack of popularity of steels with 12 or more strings is somewhat due to the fact that it's so very hard to get full chords to sound acceptable. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 2 Jun 2008 6:57 pm
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Interesting, b0b. That chart is mostly within 2 cents of what I get by taking 441 as the reference for my Es (for cabinet drop reasons) and tuning by ear to close to JI. But my raises and the open strings with the pedals down are several cents lower because of cabinet drop. One of the main things I see in your chart is that the F#s are a fair compromise to sound tolerable both as the 5ths of the open string B chord and the roots of the F# minor chord with the B and C pedals.
Jim Peters, what sound are you used to that sounds right?
Donny, my E9/B6 uni 12-strings tune just as well by ear to JI as 10-string E9. And the B6 mode is then automatically well in tune, because that is the V chord of E, which is tuned pretty much the same as the I chord of B. And the B6 pedal stops don't seem to have any more tuning issues than the usual C6 pedal stops. Maybe because the keys of E and B are so closely related, it all works out better than one might expect. |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 2 Jun 2008 7:41 pm
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| Quote: |
| Just like a driver with a noisy muffler gets "used" to the noise, our ears may gradually get used to things being out of tune (excess beats), and pretty soon we grow to either ignore it, or not to pay as much attention to it. DH |
Now THERE's a good analogy. One I wouldn't have thought of.
Not the "noisy muffler", but the difference between a "V" motor, which has inequality built in, and a "lumpy" "beating" character, and an "in line" 6 cylinder that just emits a bland putt-putt-putt-putt... You know, the old "slant 6 hum".
Take the difference between a stock opposing twin motorcycle that sounds like a lawn mower, and a 45 degree single crankpin Harley that has an "out of phase" dynamic.
Just like a V8 against a straight 6. I know plenty of guys that like a smooth equal power report from a motor. Especially the new "rice ripper" honda turbo racers.
Hey, with 300 hp in a 2000lb car, I can't argue the merits of a Hemi Cross Ram in a 63 Coronet.. I know and feel they have more soul, and class, but hey, I know which one crosses the finish line first...
Also your fallacy about "certain players" playing "beatlessly". They do it on "selected" or rather "preselected" intervals. The other ones are so out that they don't really jerk your teeth out. There are so many beats that it's just kind of a "buzz".
I guess a person likes bland smooth and soothing things, or dynamic interesting and exciting things.
Both, incidentally, tuned perfectly to have that character.
Or a mixture even.. When it's possible.
Evidently the myth of the PSG being able to be tuned like a Harpsichord is still alive and well.
At least here..
EJL |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 2 Jun 2008 8:51 pm
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Not having a clue how to calculate this stuff, is there some kind of chart or guide that would show it works with different tunings (only because I don't use E9, so that doesn't do me much good.)? I'm guessing not, but it's worth a shot asking. I'm always willing to try something like this - if I have a way to do it.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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