that sweet old timey sound

Mike Benzschawel · From: madison wi

hey fellas, here's something that i've been thinkin about since i started playing steel just a short time ago. it seems that some of the newer steels, while they look great and i'm sure play smooth, lack that "grit" or "roughness" in their tone, that makes a steel sound so wonderful (to me). i'm thinkin of that rich, smoky old bar room sound, if that makes sense. with the newer steels, some of them just sound almost to clean, or sterile, if you like. so here's the question: in your opinion, which steels (newer or older) would you say usually have this type of sound? that rough,gritty edge to temper the sweetness of its tone? sho bud? zb? emmons? any input is appreciated!

Mike Benzschawel · From: madison wi

i should mention the reason for the question. i've not heard many steels in person, and i'm saving my cash to eventually upgrade from my carter starter. i'm just curious as to hints of what i should keep an eye out for... Shocked

Steve Norman · From: Seattle Washington, USA

A lot of it is the amps from back then...
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GFI D10, Fender Steel King, Hilton Vpedal,BoBro, National D dobro, Marrs RGS

Rick Abbott · From: Indiana, USA

I find the older sounds/tones more pleasing. It seems, however, that the real issues relating to the sound you describe are a combination of 1-player, 2-pickups, 3-tube or solidstate amp. If you want to look at the steel's mechanics, I suppose that old steels don't time their pulls the same way, and/or have a slower (generally) feel to their pulls. I went from a Carter S-12 to a Sho~Bud Crossover...I can discern a difference in tone, feel and...weight. I really like the Bud! The Carter is a far better guitar.

Pointedly: new guitars are more accurate; old guitars are harder to deal with and may force you to hear what you are trying to do, in tune, adding some "vibe" you wouldn't "need" if it were easy.

I'm a hack, I may be wrong Very Happy

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RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Sehy #112
1975 Peavey Pacer 1963 Gibson Falcon

Mike Benzschawel · From: madison wi

thanks for the input guys. i run my carter starter thru an old montgomery ward tube amp and it does help it to sound warmer. rick, it does seem from what i've seen here on the forum that many of the newer guitars are better built, more accurate, lighter, etc. it's just that i'm hooked on that older vibe. Wink

Rick Abbott · From: Indiana, USA

I have a '66-'67 Sho~Bud and 1970 Evans amp. Old (middle aged) tone is my deal. The vibe is likely a technique related to overcomoming the mechanics of an inferior mechanism. I can Rock" my A-ped in the exact same feel on a new or old guitar, with practice. I like the feel of the old guitars too. A Carter starter has no old school vibe, I had one. The timing on the pulls, I think, is the main difference in old time sound, they pulled the way they pulled, you just worked around the idiosyncrasies. Just my take.
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Sehy #112
1975 Peavey Pacer 1963 Gibson Falcon

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Rick, ain't ya glad you kept that old thing?

Rick Abbott · From: Indiana, USA

You know John, I really am glad. I sure could stand to have a Jackson or Carter or even a newer Bud. In time...
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Sehy #112
1975 Peavey Pacer 1963 Gibson Falcon

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

In my opinion, the early Fenders (triple 8's) and the Bigsby's had that sound. Being matched with the amp of that day enhanced the overall tonal impact.
I too agree, that todays pickups and Peavy type amps push a very generic/sterile sound. In other words, they mostly all sound a like! They play great and they are indeed rugged.
When Emmons and Green and Hugey play, they manage to get the DIFFERENT SOUND that we've all enjoy so very much even tho' it's often on the same equipment we, ourselves are using. Roy Wiggens and JERRY BYRD likewise matched a guitar with an amp and WHAMMO!
I believe the hard truth of the matter is, that each of us should decide on what SOUND it is that we are infatuated with, what combination of guitars and amp produce it and then concentrate on our playing technique to bolster and greatly enhance THAT SOUND.
Changing from one guitar, pickup or amp to another on a constantly changing basis, I believe, defeats our ultimate goal as steel guitar players. Likewise, intermixing incoming sounds to our ear, sounds of Green, Emmons et al, has to be confusing to our ears. It's so much easier to 'hear it' when you have a single source to listen to.

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

I thought all tone is in the hands?

James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

My Shobud Professional has that "growl". It growls the best when you are playing 2 or more harmonised notes. To me, it's about harmonic overtones. It has nothing to due with how a string is pulled, because it does it whether or not you are engaging pedals or knee levers. My guitar growls if you play it acousticly, play through a twin, or play through a Session 400. Your attack on the strings has more to do with it than you'd think, too. Just my experience / opinion, of course.

Bo Legg · Posted 26 May 2008 12:41 pm

If I could go back in time and then hear the steel guitar as it’s played and sounds today, I am sure I would have thought it to be much better than the old. I am sure of one other thing. It wouldn’t have cost me as much to fill up the gas tank for the trip back.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

"Your attack on the strings has more to do with it than you'd think, too. Just my experience / opinion, of course."
James, I agree with you! I'm always surprised to see how lightly many people pluck the strings. I've always played with a very aggressive right hand. I play lightly when it's called for, sure. The attack makes a big difference in sound.

Mike Benzschawel · From: madison wi

good stuff fellas...it does seem that most experienced players can get sweet sound from just about anything. i was just curious as a beginner if there are steels that are known for their "smoky" tone, if you get me. the problem is that steels are kind of hard to come by in my neck of the woods. it's not like driving over to the guitar center and playing 10 different guitars to see which one i like best. it's tough to just buy one without playin or hearing it. then when you do manage to stop by seymours place on one of the few days that he's open you show up during business hours and they're closed! Laughing

guess i'll just have to keep practicin' and get to that dairyland steel show next year. Wink

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Mike, I lived in Milwaukee for a dozen or so years. Late 60's and 70's. Played in a band called Methyl Ethyl and The Ketones! Bought my first couple of steels from West Allis Music. Probably long gone.

James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

Mike, you might start by keeping your eyes open for an old roundfront shobud, like a Pro II or Professional, or the counterpart singleneck buds. That's what works for me anyways. ZB's are also a good bet.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Like this 'un James?
http://tinyurl.com/6ag3e7
Just needs a few knee lever kits.

basilh · From: United Kingdom

I tried to read the thread, and I'm sure it's most informative, but unfortunately the long url posted above is making me have to scroll to read every single line.
PLEASE John could you post the url using UBB code...

Click here for instructions
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Steelies do it without fretting

CLICK THIS to view my tone bars and buy——>

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Sorry Basilh! It works perfectly on a Mac. here's a tiny URL that may work better for you PC guys.
http://tinyurl.com/6ag3e7

basilh · From: United Kingdom

Thanks John, I AM on a Mac G5 2.5 Dual PowerPC. Maybe it's the browser issue, I'm using firefox..
BTW the page looks good now, thanks again..

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Good deal! I'll use the Tiny URLs from now on. Seems to be a better method to use. It's a nice guitar, no matter how you view it!

basilh · From: United Kingdom

Mike Benzschawel, I find that the Fender 400-1000 800-2000 models have a much warmer sound than the more modern steels, maybe it's down to the pickup impedance, usually around 5.7K to 6.5kohms.

The modern steels have pickups that are approaching 20,000 Ohms. I don't know that that's the reason for the different sound, but take this on board as well, the early lap steels had pickup impedances of somewhere just UNDER 2,000 Ohms..

Mike Benzschawel · From: madison wi

man...what can you say about the forum. helpful all the way around guys. thanks for all the info. plenty to think about when i'm ready to upgrade my steel. Cool

Rick Abbott · From: Indiana, USA

There is a Zane Beck S-10 on Ebay right now. Looks cool, I wish I had the $800 bucks. I'm sure that it isn't mechanically modern, but "that vibe".
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Sehy #112
1975 Peavey Pacer 1963 Gibson Falcon

Wally Taylor · From: Hardin, Kentucky, USA

Kevin,
You continue to crack me up!! Laughing

Wally

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