Garcia and the New Riders.. cool clip!!!

[Ben Jones]

wow!

awesome to hear from a legend!

[Mike Poholsky]

JB, Tell Buddy Thanks. Couldn't agree more, especially the last part of his comments. There's nothing like a Dead Concert. Altered state of mind? Absolutely! I am confident that if it were even a possibility to have that experience now, unaltered, it would be just as enjoyable, if not more so.
Buddy was also a HUGE influence, especially early on!

[Jim Sliff]

Finally.

Buddy Cage said much of the same thing I've been saying for quite some time....of course he has a little more established credibility than I do, but I wonder if any of the guys that like to come after me for making quite tempered versions of the same comments have the cojones to confront Mr. Cage for his right-between-the-eyes (and IMO dead-on, no pun intended) comments? Step up boys - now's your chance to make your point and disagree with a respected, seasoned pro.

Nah - I can hear the heads being stuck in the sand. I know I'd have a lot more respect for those who disagree with Buddy is they'd have the guts to debate the subject right here, right now. I know there are others who feel the same way. I wonder how quickly this thread will drop of the page due to lack of responses?

Thank you Buddy. You clearly and without pulling punches summarized the feelings of quite a few players on this forum, and many who have unfortunately come and gone (some after a single visit) because of the attitudes you observed.

Well said and thank you for having it posted for you...I don't blame you for not joining to do it yourself, for obvious reasons.

BTW, the knee lever story is a classic!

Jim

[John Lockney]

There is was black Emmons guitar on stage in Copenhagen, Denmark 4/17/72. Not actually played but seen at 00:07 in this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNyFhQsqwYg

It may have been a different guitar but, I thought the only Dead with pedal steel in '72 was a few versions of "Looks Like Rain". e.g. with steel on Dick's Picks 30 from 3/28/72 in NY.

And, Cage's guitar in Festival Express was light blue but, there is a picture of him playing a black Emmons in the CD cover of the official release of the NRPS set from 8/27/72... I asked Cage who's black Emmons that was a while ago and and stuff and eventually came to the conclusion I would be better off practicing instead of wondering what color someone else's guitar used to be... Which he confirmed.

[Mark Lind-Hanson]

Jerry actually pulled off a couple "Looks Like Rain"'s on psg on the Europe 1972 tour. Not enough, but at least one is well worth it (Newcastle) to hunt up. Seems that something must have discouraged him from trying it every night.

[Duane Reese]

Dylan CAN sing - anybody out there too brain dead to grok this has zero ears and should just stick to selling shoe polish. But if you're looking for Sinatra or Streisand, you've stumbled onto the wrong string in your dodderingly, pathetic World.

Damn! That had teeth in it! (I just caught up with this thread again.)

Hey Sliff, I don't care if it comes from a renown player like Buddy Cage - there's no dignity at all in childish insults like that. I gave both Dylan and Jerry Garcia credit where credit is due, as I'd give Cage for his outstanding steel picking. If it's about steel I'd listen up good when he speaks, but he should know that if it's about judging the quality of Dylan's singing, his credentials don't mean a thing to me, especially when that's how he expresses it. Even though I'm not looking for Sinatra, Streisand, American Idol or any of that, I'll agree with him that it's an area of music that's not for me (if Bob Dylan's singing sets any kind of standard - I'm fine with being excluded from that).

And by the way, Jim, there's nothing to debate; anyone can listen to what Bob Dylan sounds like and make up their own mind. My ears tell me his singing is below par, Buddy Cage tells me I'm a looser, end of story. I don't care what he thinks, and he doesn't care what I think.

[Jim Sliff]

Well, Duane - if the shoe fits I hope you enjoy wearing it. You just won't let go, will you? You accuse Cage of insults and clearly make your own backhanded ones.

Who is the childish one?

As far as the email you sent me, as if to prove how manly you were by letting me know you had posted in response to Buddy (at least that's what you said) and asking if I now respected you more..or less...

The answer is - FAR less. It would have been FAR more had you not sent the "nya nya, I posted, whaddya think about that?" email. But you attempt to wave it in front of me undermined your credibility completely.

Additionally, you apparently needed to address me instead of simply answering Buddy. I never named you or anyone else. But you just had to assume it was you I was thinking of (for the record - it wasn't. You weren't even on my radar) and couldn't resist making it a personal thing with me. You just keep creating personal situations where they didn't exist.

I won't even get too deep into content, as anyone who can read knows you only addressed small parts of Buddy's comments. It appears you were more interested in the "dignity" of the presentation and ensuring you made it clear you were addressing me - not Buddy...except for putting words in his mouth.

Some things will just never change. Thank God someone like Cage has the temerity to address them.

[Duane Reese]

As promised, I will respond to you only in the thread.

The reason I sent you a private message in addition to my response here was to avoid discussing, on the forum, how you must be filled with a lot of contempt to want to get right in the middle of it and pit me against someone else, mocking and jeering the whole way... So there's your answer to that one. As far as the "how's your respect level for me now" part, that was rhetorical - you've made it clear that you don't respect my opinion.

I did address Cage, but only the parts of his remarks that were personal insults directed me, as I was the one who said Dylan couldn't carry a tune. It was also clear by your comments that I wasn't off your radar - I was right in the cross hairs. I addressed you also because you sided with him in his criticism (sucking up to him, in my opinion).

Oh and concerning your message back about giving me "no leeway in the future"... Can you see me shaking in my boots? Your gloves are always off and it's nothing to me anyhow.

Now if you or anyone else have any other issues with me or anything I've said, feel free to contact me, but what do you say we try not to trash this thread, okay?

[Fish]

Y'all behave or Jerry Garcia will zap b0b's SGF hard drive again.

[Jim Sliff]

It was also clear by your comments that I wasn't off your radar - I was right in the cross hairs.

You didn't even cross my mind Duane. After our last go-round I thought we had pretty much cleared the air, shaken hands, and that was that. I guess you still carry some baggage and/or paranoia. Sorry to hear that, but OTOH I clearly did NOT mention you at all and you came right at me personally - who is in the wrong here?

As far as "sucking up" - I've never met or talked to Buddy Cage, and honestly I am not a huge fan. Not that I don't like his stuff, It's just not really my specific style. I was simly glad to see one of the major players - no matter who, although in this case it was especially credible - come out and say what's been said before, and was pointing out (yes, in a challenging way) that while some guys here will jump me or others for the same statements they'll go into hiding when a "name" player makes the comments. I especially liked this:

You guys are the same clowns I stand up to and figuratively battle with on a daily basis. All hat, no cattle.

...because I can relate to it only too well.

The comments you made were fine Duane. I disagree with your Dylan comments regarding vocals, but notice I didn't mention that EITHER. You don't show up in my initial post at all - only in response to your using MY name and sending a childish email. Had you simply left it at the post I 1) would have been surprised that you made them based on out last few friendly conversations, and 2) Would have increased my respect for you by your willingness to speak your mind , even going up against someone like Buddy.

But sending me an email announcing "I did it - so there" shows that I guess while I'd let things go, you have not. That's your prerogative - but go back and read my first post after Buddy's and look for your name - it's not there. YOU initiated personal, by-name attacks. Again, I thought we were fine - but your actions prove that "we" aren't - only *I* was. And personal attacks on me will not be tolerated, so if you're starting them up again you're the instigator and the one specifically violating forum rules. I'm responding only in defense.

Your post was also, IMO, an attempt to change the subject from Buddy's comments by bringing my name up and turning into a "Jim" thread. I guess you just have not changed.

That's sad. I wish you well....just stay away from me. If I don't mention you, assume you're not a part of my conversation.

I'm *trying* not to hold any ill will, Duane - so will you just let go and get on with your life?

[Mike Winter]

Jack Dougherty said:

Mike Winter wrote:
Too bad some can't see past drugs/hippie stuff....



Since I was the only one to reference this, I guess the comment was for me.
I have no problem getting past the "stuff". I've been past it for over 40 years. But that doesn't mean it wasn't a big part of the music scene back then.
It's like saying I like the taste of apple pie but I don't like apples.
For Jerry to add steel to the bands arsenal was way cool. But back then a lot of things were cool. I will always appreciate it for what it was and lament for what might have been.

It wasn't a reference to you, Jack. I meant it in general. A lot of people won't even try to see what Jerry was about, because they can't get past the hippie thing. Their loss, though.

[Joey Ace]

Long ago, The Dillards used to introduce their cover of Dylan's "Walkin Down The Line" by saying "he has a voice like a dog with his leg caught in barbed wire."

I loved that line, and used it several times to describe my vocals ( and some others).

I took it as good natured humor. We all need to lighten up.

Thanks to Cage for the post. Don't lose sight of the fact that the Gar / GD critics are a very small minority here. They just tend be be heavy posters.

The vast majority, who understand his contributions, have the sense to know there's no point to be drawn into these arguments.

[Bo Legg]

Mr. Cage, Some of us have cattle, and can't afford a hat. And my hearing is GD when it comes to Dylan. But Mr. Cage any fool can hear that you play a heck of a lot better steel than Mr. Garcia. What makes him an icon and so few of us know about you. I'll tell you what STUPIDITY!

[JB Arnold]

BUWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAAAAAAAAAAAA!

JB

[Jim Sliff]

As promised, I will respond to you only in the thread.

So why did you send me another PM last night still insisting I was attacking you?

Man, I don't know what you were reading, but I STILL can't find your name or anything that even implies it anywhere. That's because I wasn't even thinking of of you, as I've said. I hope you find some peace.

Bo - calling JG fans "stupid" I think was a bit of a mistake...because you just called age "stupid", since he's a JG fan.

JG admitted he was not a great steel player. But what he was is a great steel "stylist". There are many players of various instrument who are not technically proficient, but play with a specific touch, use certain hooks, or have a signature tone that makes them "great" in a "musical" way.

BB King is not a great guitar player from a technical standpoint, but you won't find an electric blues player who wouldn't jump at the chance to watch him for 4 hours from 10 feet away. OTOH, Yngwie Malmsteen (a player you may not have heard of but well-know in the 6-string world) is an incredible technician but a running joke among guitarists as all he's about is speed and flash.

I've heard tremendous technical steelers who bored me to death. They could play 9000 notes a minute, perfectly on beat, never make a mistake, but have no "style or "touch"

To me that's the key to Garcia's steel playing - he sounds like Jerry Garcia. As I've mentioned before, he has a signature touch and certain note choices that are the same on steel, 6-string and banjo. He was a consummate stylist.

If technical skill was a requirement to become a "name musician", no, you would not have Jerry Garcia. Nor BB King...or Robert Johnson, Taj Mahal, George Thorogood...or those guys known as The Beatles. OR the Stones. Surfaris. The list goes on.

Non-musician audiences could not care less about technical perfection. They care about being entertained, and "style" entertains FAR more than technical wizardry.

[Kevin Hatton]

I really agree with Jim here. Some players in the steel guitar community get caught up in the latest knee lever or pedal craze and insist on having seven knee levers on their guitars. Bobbe Seymour showed me a long time ago what could be done with 3 & 2 using slants and string pulls. Using BB King as an example is perfect. Myles Davis is another. I was just talking to a fusion jazz bass player that did some tours with Myles. He told me that when Myles came in for a passage on an improv he could play one note and it would totally change the direction and color of the passage, and the band would follow. I saw Jerry Garcia play steel twice on his ZB. He played like Jerry Garcia. He had a great style. He was much better in the studio technicly than live as far as accuracy goes. Jerry garcia was a classic musician/artist. He inspired many to take up steel including me, along with the rest of the 60's country rock players. All I know is, if it ain't played with pain and soul, it ain't @#$%%^&. Technicality doesn't make it.Ernest Tubb, Jimmy Durante (love 'em).

[Bo Legg]

Jim Sliff

Bo - calling JG fans "stupid" I think was a bit of a mistake...because you just called age "stupid", since he's a JG fan. JG admitted he was not a great steel player.

JG admits he's not a great steel player. Why do the rest of you have so much trouble admitting that? I take back the stupid but you gotta be a 10 on the denial scale.

[Jim Sliff]

Bo - where do you read that "the rest of us" are saying JG is a great steel player?

I said he's a great "stylist", as did Kevin. There was a detailed explanation of "style" vs "technical perfection". That's what most people who enjoy his playing express. You don't have to be "great" to be influential, nor to play memorable music. JG's "Teach Your Children" is not a great example of technical ability, and there are a couple notes in it that make me cringe. BUT - it's probably been heard by more non-players than just about any other steel guitar part, and THEY think it's good.

If we're doing it right, we're playing to the audience, not playing to us. There's a LOT more of them than us....and they sign the checks.

He was a great stylist and an influential player that got a LOT of players started on steel. Please go back and re-read the post regarding "stylists" s "technical players". IMO you are misinterpreting people's comments.

[Bo Legg]

Jim Sliff

He was a great stylist and an influential player that got a LOT of players started on steel. Please go back and re-read the post regarding "stylists" s "technical players". IMO you are misinterpreting people's comments.

I thought you guys were mistaking a stylist for a great player.
God only knows how far the steel would have advanced if JG would have stuck to guitar and Mr. Cage would have started out playing the steel and not been stuck with chicken picking to sound somewhat like JG.

[Jim Peters]

I don't see ANY resemblance between Cage and JG on steel. JP

[Duncan Hodge]

I'll just say that I always liked Jerry's steel playing, I still like Jerry's steel playing and as far as I can figger, I'll probably continue to like his steel playing. His playing just sort of sounds happy and bouncy. Maybe he was happy when he was playingsteel...I know that I am. Anyway I have a seven cd set from the Dead and NRPS from 1970 where two entire disks are dedicated to the NRPS and has some wonderful, and not so wonderful(but still happy and bouncy) ZB playing by JG. I'd be happy to send Bob a free copy if he wants.
Here is also another fun one with Jerry on the steel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI-h51hAsEA
Duncan

[Rick Abbott]

Archie Nichol, you won the grand prize. For the record I am pretty poor at the steel, but I like JG and BC.

[JB Arnold]

Bo

You clearly never heard Cage play, or have any kind of information on his career.

First of all, You won't hear him call Garcia a great player either. His feelings echo Jim's. In fact, when asked about the mistaken idea that he taught Garcia to play, his stock quote is "If I HAD taught him to play, he'd have been a better player."

Cage learned to play from Ken Near in Toronto. Here's his tale on that:
"Ken Near was my guitar teacher that I found and found me when I was about 12 actually 11 ½. He was teaching me these Hawaiian guitar lessons and stuff and he played a Fender 1000 and I was just so fascinated with this instrument. But I had no musical knowledge beyond Mood Indigo, and all those great changes, you know. Sentimental Journey, and it was great, you know you could do that with pedals added to that. It just stoned me. Then when he found out about the Nashville tuning, that would be about 1958, and Emmons and Day, those two tigers from South Bend and Texas were inventing that stuff. They were just inventing it you know. So they only started to invent that stuff in 1952/1953. So it wasn’t like 6 years after that I was hearing about that. We have some records of stuff that Emmons did, just like tearing your eyes out…. Midnight Jamboree with Ernest Tubb. Emmons was doing Bobby Garret’s Rose City Chimes. That’s some real hot stuff. So, Ken ended up taking me to my first Ernest Tubb concert. Emmons was obviously the best, the only thing. Then I went to this concert with him and it turned out that Ken, knowing what a punk I was born to be, he says I got some mixed news here. Emmons quit Tubb. I went screw that I’m out of here. He said wait, give the new guy, (Ken was like a younger uncle to me.) He said give the guy a chance man, it’s the least you can do. It turned out to be Charlton! And after the first four bars it was all over. It was the only thing that mattered was Charlton. So Ken Near seen me through all of this stuff, Ken grew me to be his specialty. When we would go to like adjudication’s, conventions and stuff he would say “play this piece and you could walk away with everything.” So, in my class in my age class it was always go go go go go. But that was a big thrill when I was a kid to be a gold medallist, this that and the other. But then when you get to be the best on your block, the best in your town, the best in your state. That’s where you’re starting to come into maturity, I’m 15. He didn’t really understand it, (The E9th tuning), he didn’t really comprehend it like I did almost naturally. So I ended up giving him a few lessons on it which was kind of like a strange world. It was fairly uncomfortable for a period of time. But Ken saw me through, he took me to the Emmons guitar company in 61 when it was in a building about twice the size of this room. The storefront. He did a lot for me a lot a lot a lot. Stuff that I couldn’t even explain. He listened to my crap too. I was just a punk kid in 59. He really did an awful lot for maturing me and helping me out."

From John Cadeau:"I took lessons from Ken Near with Buddy, and I remember the E.T. show. Buddy I and got the E9th tunning from Buddy Charleton after the show and went home and tuned our Fender 400’s to E9th, and Ken taught us the steel intro, and turn around to Above and Beyond."

Cage has been a Charleton guy ever since. And I know, because I've asked, that that respect goes both ways.

Cage went on to work for Anne Murray (1st 5 albums. "she was such a levelheaded, easygoing,…girl, you know? And we were all such absolute punks. Doing drugs and all..right under her nose. And she was always great to me.") who provided this:“Buddy Cage was the most innovative steel player that I had ever heard and I still look back at him that way. I found Buddy to be quite a different player from most due to his innovation and uniqueness.”

He worked in Toronto at major club backing up all the Opry acts that came through, then worked for Ronnie Hawkins. When Hawkins went to Muscle Shoals, most of those player went on to become either Seatrain or the Full Tilt Boogie Band, but Ian Tyson contracted him to play for great Speckeled Bird, and he was the steel player on 2 of the earliest examples of Country Rock ever, along with Amos Garrett on guitar. He also appeared on the Tyson's TV show at that time.

On how he met Garcia:I was taken to a concert that they were doing when this old friend of mine… she was like the house mother for all the musicians, like me and Amos, and all of the musicians that were on the cutting edge of things, things might explode for these guys….she insisted that I go to this concert where this group from San Francisco was playing and the lead guitarist played pedal steel and I should hear it. I said well I guess I would love to hear what they are doing. I heard it and it was ATROCIUS and I walked out…. I just said that I was going…I couldn’t stand it. This was terrible, obviously these guys were so messed up…I mean look at them! (laughs) She followed me out, she said I wish that you would give them a chance they’re doing some great stuff and I went “oh bull.” So anyway I didn’t see Garcia until maybe six months after that on the train and he was still playing the same plink-plank plunk plunk. The crew had asked me to please come and set up with Jerry he would love to have you set up with him. He would love to have you show him some stuff and do some stuff together.

Once I heard them play, as the Grateful Dead, when he wasn’t playing steel any longer, I thought “Holy cow, man this guy can really pick.” This guy could really smoke….The magic that they were conjuring up, like with a baton you could see his neck and in his eyes he was doing these things with that band that were just like, unbelievable, spontaneously it was just like I was blown away. What Amos and I had been doing, this Garcia had been doing with Lesh’s Bass and keyboard and working things out. He never played note for note things or any other kind of boring stuff. You want note for note, go listen to Perry Como.The Train was the Festival Express train. It's my unsupported opinion that being there right next to a REAL steel player for a week is what got Garcia thinking about his role with the New Riders, who were taking off and going out on their own soon anyway. Garcia had to go back to his day job. He called Cage in Canada and offered him the steel Chair in the NRPS, but he had to get out of his contract with Ian, who told him he could go if he found someone equally good to take his place-who turned out to be Ben Keith. It had to be someone THAT good.

Cage's work with the New Riders is legendary. The band took off. It's a combination of old school country and psychedelic cowboy rock that no one else has approached. He was also chosen by Dylan for the Blood on the Tracks sessions, as well as many of Brewer and Shipley's albums.

He took a break at the end of the 80's to deal with an alcohol problem that was not uncommon to many at the time. He played himself back into shape by going to jam band concerts and sitting in with whoever would have him on the stage, finally settling in with Stir Fried, with whom he still plays. He did 2 very underrated albums with the Brooklyn Cowboys, and over the last 2 years has reformed the NRPS with David Nelson and that has been touring very successfully.

Cage is an innovator and a forward thinker, but don't get it in your head that he's not a traditionalist. His favorite steelers are Charleton, Emmons, and Day. In his car he listens to Paycheck, George Jones, and Johnny Cash. He can play all that stuff in his sleep-if you don't think he can make it cry and moan with the best of them you haven't heard Gypsy Cowboy.

Calling his sound plink and plunk is just bogus. It tells me you've never heard a note of it. You may not like his attitude or his politics, but if you're trying to call out his play you're just way off base. He's the reason a LOT of us are playing at all. He's a legendary figure in the history of the instrument, and I'm kind of working on an SGHOF nomination for him. Don't laugh-I have support from some quarters you might not initially think would be receptive. There is a great deal of interest there.

“I consider Buddy Cage to be one of the best and most respected steel guitarists in the rock field, and more importantly, I consider him to be a long time friend. His playing has influenced many people to start playing the steel guitar and he has the respect of so many, many fans that do not play the instrument." DeWitt “Scotty” Scott, Sr. International Steel Guitar Convention St. Louis, MO.


It’s the music of life, whatever makes you high or gets you through the day. That’s the music whether it’s Shania Twain or Anne Murray or whether it is Grateful Dead or whether it’s Dylan. It has to be something. I’m glad to be a part of it. Cage.


JB

[Dan Tyack]

I like Garcia's playing in that clip. Great tone.

[Brint Hannay]

JB, that was an excellent and informative post. Thanks.