12 String Ext E9

[Jon Light]

I consider my Uni to be a different sort of Ext12. By stringing it up as a Uni it gives me the B6 options that I wouldn't have with an Ext12 while also giving me the extended E9 range.
So I'll call mine a mutant Ext12 and address the questions:

---I raise all 3 G#'s on the B pedal

---I raise all 3 E's on the F lever
(and also raise string 2 from D>D#)

---since my D note is achieved with a lever rather than the standard Uni P6 I consider this to be as much an E9 thing as a Uni thing. As I consider pretty much all the other changes.

Yeah, I'm one of those 'one big tuning' guys. A string hugger.

[John McClung]

Groover, I'll post my copedent when I have a little time. My F lever lowers string 12 to C#, that's a groovy change, but I wish it were a double stop, pausing at D.

I just added a front RKL, mimicking Mr. Perlowin, not sure how it's gonna work out, it's a real stretch.

News at 11.

[Dean Parks]

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[Michael Dulin]

Thanks so much for the response. I'm a new member and this is my first post. I've been playing for awhile but still consider myself little more than a novice. Usually I play with just a few friends and found early on that when the single guitar player goes to a lead break it leaves a big hole with no rhythm. That's what first led me to a 12...fill in rhythm instead of just sitting there with my arms folded. I see many of you found it the same then started discovering much more use of 12 strings. I'd like to hear about more uses of a 12 and I would like to see more players try it. Thanks again M.D.

[John Groover McDuffie]

Sorry Jon Light and Dean, but according to the first post on page 2 of this thread for Uni E9/B6 players:

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... c&start=25

you guys are playing Universal tuning, not XE9. My attempts to be included in that discussion were coldly rebuffed, so I am afraid I am going to ask that we keep the XE9 community similarly pure and REQUIRE that your tuning have a D as a 9th string to play in our sand box. Go play with those Uni E9/B6 kids.

added on 5/6/08: Please see my new post below.

[Roger Rettig]

Nicely put, John - having a D on the 9th is a prerequisite for membership of THIS club!!!

(Not that I'm a member yet - but I will be; and, when I am, you can be certain I'll have that vital 'D' not in the bass! I doubt that life is sustainable without it, actually.....)

[David Doggett]

[Sorry, I wrote this before seeing the two posts above, which I agree with. I'll leave my Ext. E9 vs. uni discussion here for those fence sitters who might be interested. But committed Ext. E9 D-stringers can skip it, with my apologies.]

As an E9/B6 uni player, I have resisted commenting here. If I was an Ext. E9 player, I wouldn't want uni players cluttering up the thread with stuff that is irrelevant to Ext. E9. But in the interest of clarifying the difference, I'll say my two cents and then butt out.

Although they both use 12 strings, Ext. E9 and uni are very different approaches. Ext. E9 is defined by the D string. Many long-time 10-string E9 players have learned to make extensive use of the D string. If they move to 12-string, they make a firm decision that keeping the D string is more important to them than having the standard C6 tuning (down a half-step as B6). They do not have the standard 6th tuning or the pedals and levers that go with it. They can get a B6 tuning of sorts by lowering the Es; but it has an extra string messing up its simplicity and strums, and is missing the lowest root. Most 6th neck players consider it ruined. Of course E9 players can get a respectable A6 tuning with the pedals down, but the classic C6 type tuning is gone for all practical purposes.

E9/B6 uni players have made a very different choice. They have given up the D string licks, but have added the entire classic C6 tuning (as B6). They can get the D on a lever, but they temporarily give up either E or B to get it. Apparently, if they move to 12-string, some veteran E9 players with extensive D string licks find that so unacceptable, they would rather keep the D string and give up the whole classic C6 type tuning. They are not interested in getting both the classic D10 necks on one neck, either as separate tunings with a locking lever, or as one big tuning. They are solely focused on the whole classic 10-string E9 tuning, but with a couple of extra low strings. Well, so be it. Veteran players who have made that decision deserve to have discussions of the possibilities of that tuning without having a bunch of uni players cluttering up the thread with irrelevant uni licks and copedent possibilities.

So far, as usual, this thread has turned into a discussion of the relative merits of Ext. E9 and uni. so for the sake of undecided 12-string maybees and wannabees, I'll have my say on that in this one post, and then butt out. After starting on an S10 E9, I decided I wanted more low strings for rock, blues, jazz and classical. So I got an S12 extended E9. While I had painstakingly learned the grips required to skip stings 7 and 9 on 10-string. The extra strings on the bottom gave me enough additional grips for my thumb and fingers to learn that I felt lost on the bottom strings. It felt like I was playing a harp, and I missed the simplicity and ease of the open tunings of slide guitar and Dobro.

So then I tried a uni. Wow. Without that D string, suddenly everything cleared up for my grips on the bottom strings. It was like playing slide guitar and Dobro again. Now, in all honesty, I had never made much use of the D string on E9. So I didn't really miss it. And when I did use the D lever on uni, I enjoyed the sound of the bend, and enjoyed not having to block the string when I moved off of the D.

This seemed all too simple and easy. So I wondered what all those D string fanatics were talking about. What were they able to do that I couldn't. So I have carefully watched all the threads that demonstrate things that can be done with the D string. And I still have a D10 that allows me to try D string licks. I have always been completely underwhelmed. It just all seems like stuff I don't need, or can get with the D lever on a uni. I have come to the conclusion that FOR ME there is nothing special about that stuff. Sure if you add any new string to a tuning, and practice a lot with it, and work up a lot of stuff to do with it, and play with it for years, you have stuff you can't get any other way. But is that stuff vastly better than other stuff you could have gotten with another new string? For me, with the D string, not so much.

And you have to ask what you give up by breaking up the tuning with that new string. For me, it meant breaking up the classic C6(B6) tuning. Now, I didn't play C6 before my uni. And if I had stayed with Ext. E9, I maybe never would have. But as soon as I got my uni, I discovered the whole great world of the classic 6th tuning. First I just played it like a lap steel. As Jeff Newman says, there are no wrong notes. You don't have to use skip grips. It is easy as pie to get tons of '40s and '50s sounding country and swing stuff with movable chords and no skip grips. No way would I ever give up that whole 6th neck world for that one D string.

So for me, when you take the whole 6th neck, plus the slide guitar/dobro-like simplicity of the low strings, there is simply no contest, compared to small amount of stuff of questionable value to me tha t I could get with the D string.

But there's more. On uni, you get one additional low string compared to Ext. E9. It's even lower than the bottom string of regular guitar. With the A pedal down, that string becomes the low root of the minor tuning. There's your minor key power chord. There are tons of rock, blues and jazz possibilities there. It is three octaves of minor pentatonic scale notes. Awesome. It's like a whole third tuning.

So the bottom line for me is: 1) not much use for the D string (for me), 2) simple slide/Dobro like grips on the bottom, 3) the whole classic C6 tuning, 4) the whole new C#m 12-string pentatonic tuning. So for me, give me a uni - I don't need no stinking D string.

But I greatly respect people like Doug Livingston and b0b, who have built their world around the D string, and want to keep it that way. And people who have made that choice might want threads discussing what they can do with it, uncluttered with a bunch of irrelevant uni stuff. We should respect that.

[Roger Rettig]

David,

I said: "...having a D on the 9th is a prerequisite for membership of THIS club!!!"

First: I trust that you appreciate that my last post was a spot of light-hearted banter. I have no problem with anything related to 12-string tunings being on this thread.

The 'D' string. Yes, I am a staunch proponent of the 9th D, but because of the unique flavour I can get when using it as a root note along with A and B, or B and C pedals. That is primarily why I like it so much.

I do like the D for its usefulness in single-string passages in the low-end, but it's principally as a tonic note that I find it indispensable.

I'm not much of a country player. I like to play pop or standards, but will do whatever is required to make a living. My familiarity with E9 is really due to thirty + years of acquaintanceship. I'm fond of C6th, too, but I'm far less comfortable back there. In a perfect world, I'd like to see my beloved E9 extended to 12 strings, along with my favourite pulls (the Isaacs pedal, the whole-tone raise on the middle G#, etc), and a ten-string C6th all on one guitar, but that's not an affordable (or a portable!) option.

My 'project' Ext. E9 may remain just that - a project that'll sit in my music room 'til the end of time - but I do want to try it. I don't see any tuning - Uni, ext E9, C6th - as a complete substitute for any other, but I would like to see E9 being fully-exploited.

You said:

"They are solely focused on the whole classic 10-string E9 tuning, but with a couple of extra low strings."

I wanted to clarify that so-called 'classic E9' is not what I'm striving for, but a multi-purpose pop-orientated tuning that will let me go where I want.

Other than that generalization, I enjoyed your lucid post.

[Rick Schmidt]

Jim Palenscar has a S-12 tuning that he says is similar to a tuning that BE used and discarded a few years ago.
I'm not sure exactly what it is, but I know that it has a D in the 9th string spot, but in other respects is more like a universal. I do know that his "E" lever does alot more than just lower the E's. I think there's still a low B on the bottom instead of the low ext.E, and the 6th pedals on the right are just like C6(B6).

I played it briefly and thought it was pretty cool and worthy of serious consideration. Maybe we can get Jim to fill us in on the details.

The D with the D-C# lower is IMHO the coolest part of E9. Great counterpoint w/resolutions I can't find anywhere else, great modern sounding jazz chords ala Randy Beavers, Tommy White and PF....and GREAT pentatonics!

[Roger Rettig]

Exactly, Rick -

"The D with the D-C# lower is IMHO the coolest part of E9. Great counterpoint w/resolutions I can't find anywhere else, great modern sounding jazz chords..."

.....and unique to that tuning!

That's why I like it so much, and why I want to work with a fuller E9 set-up.

[John Groover McDuffie]

David I'm just gonna play the thing.

[b0b]

Apparently, if they move to 12-string, some veteran E9 players with extensive D string licks find that so unacceptable, they would rather keep the D string and give up the whole classic C6 type tuning.

Unless they're playing a D-12!

I have no problem with skip grips. It's not so much that I would miss D string 'licks'. It's more that I find it darned inconvenient to have to hit a knee lever to get that note when I need it. It's slower, and I have to think ahead more if I don't want to slide into it.

I use the middle D and F# strings as much as I use the E. To me the uni idea of going from 2nd intervals to a 4th interval really breaks the continuity of the tuning right there at the 8th string.

If I had to lose a string there, I'd use the Zane Beck approach and tune the 8th string to D instead of E.

[Jim Palenscar]

As Rick alluded to - I do have an extended E9 but also a universal totally stolen from Buddy's trash . The lever that lowers the E-Eb (usually #'s 4 and 8 ) also lowers #'s 9 and 10 1 1/2 tones (D-B and B-G#) bringing it back into a standard B6. The caveat is that the lever is now stiffer and has quite a bit longer travel to accomplish a 4 string lower (#'s 4,8,9,and 10) and I must admit that it's a trade off between that and the Anapeg at home that is a straight uni- it sure is nice not to have to watch out for that pesky D note .

[mike nolan]

Jim,

That is what I did on my foray into U-12.... a real E9 12 string and a real B6 12 string..... I really liked it, but I was using an older guitar, that really couldn't handle all of the tuning/intonation requirements..... and parts were an issue. One of these days, I'm going to find the right, modern 12 string and try it again.

[David Doggett]

David I'm just gonna play the thing.

That is the point, John. Didn't mean to make you feel like you got a cold shoulder in the uni thread. It's just that I think you'll be happier here.

Y'all have fun with that D string.

[John McClung]

On my Carter I'm experimenting with lowering string 9 to C# on the E knee lever. That does get rid of the outside D note when lowering E's and playing in B6 mode. Haven't found any serious negatives to doing that so far. Is the chord then a B9 add 13, or B13 add 9? B9 add 6 cause there's no b7 in the chord? Does it matter?

[Rick Schmidt]

On my Carter I'm experimenting with lowering string 9 to C# on the E knee lever.

Hi John...I've been thinking that's a good idea too, but are you still lowering the D to C# on it's own lever also?

[John Groover McDuffie]

Okay, here's my setup

Extended E9 with #2 tuned to D natural.

5 pedals: 1 A B C 5
pedal 1 lowers #3, #6, and #11 to G
pedal 5 raises strings #5; #6 a hole step
4 knee levers (I have a LK^ but it's not in use)
LKL raises #4; #8, and #12 to F
LKR lowers #4 & #8 to D#
RKL raises #1 to G, raises #7 to G# with a feel stop @ G
RKR raises #2 to D#; lowers #9 to C#; raises #12 to F# but sometimes I back that change off so it's out of play

so there ya go. no good reason for leaving #12 off of LKR now that I think about it. (So many inversions, so few bellcranks!)

[John McClung]

Hey Rick, how's life?

Yes, of course, still lowering string 9 while double stop lowering string 2, couldn't do without that change. So I lower it twice now. Really makes the neck nice and strummable in B6 mode. Maybe I should lower it all the way to a unison B matching string 10, get rid of that not-always-desired 9th tone.

[Ken Metcalf]

I have been thinking about switching but would like to at least spend some time sitting behind one before I spend the cash... Any body in Austin, or San Antone.
Thanks
Ken

[Dean Parks]

John-

The reason for not lowering 12 (E) with 8 and 4, is for an E root for Ema7 (or Emi/ma7 if you have the G#s lowered to G).

[b0b]

Groover, I'll post my copedent when I have a little time. My F lever lowers string 12 to C#, that's a groovy change, but I wish it were a double stop, pausing at D.

I've found the 12th string lower to D works really well on the "C" pedal. It doesn't interfere at all with the high changes on that pedal.

[John Groover McDuffie]

I have come to realize that my "Play in your own sandbox" post could easily have been taken the wrong way. My post was intended to be humorous, and was meant to poke good-natured fun at the selectivity expressed on the Uni E9/B6 thread.

However I can now see how it may have been taken to be more confrontational than I meant it to be, and that posting in in this thread was aiming my retort at the wrong target.

My apologies to anyone I may have unintentionally offended. (In cyberspace no one can tell you're joking!)

[Roger Rettig]

I think I fell in the same (sand)trap.....

[David Doggett]

Well, okay then. Let's have a warm fuzzy hug for all those with 12 strings, no matter how they tune 'em.