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Topic: Counterfeit Guitar Parts? |
Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 28 Mar 2008 8:18 am |
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I'm just repeating a question I asked on the Sho-Bud tuner thread---
The best price I've found on Grover Rotomatics, 3+3,chrome, 18:1, (10218C) is at Sam Ash, $47.
I am looking at some Canadian & Hong Kong Ebay dealers selling this exact tuner for $30--40, shipped.
Would you suspect (or be wary of) counterfeits? |
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Marc Jenkins
From:
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 28 Mar 2008 10:44 am
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Jon,
I would be wary. I'm the stock manager at a music store in Victoria, BC, and I couldn't buy these from an authorized wholesaler for $30. Canadian sell price should really be around $45 - $50. |
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 28 Mar 2008 11:09 am
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Aha! Excellent inside info. Very sobering---I was so close to making the buy but I have little sympathy when I read of people getting scammed by 'too good to be true' deals because of their own greed or cheapness and I don't want to end up the subject of my own scorn, greedy and cheap though I am. Still, I can't help wondering........
But no. Time to place my order nice and legit and white market-like. |
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Richard Damron
From:
Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)
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Posted 28 Mar 2008 11:25 am
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Jon -
Really liked your old avatar - you know - leaning into it with that look of grim determination but, for the life of me, I can't decipher the meaning of your new one. Maybe just a hint?
Richard |
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 28 Mar 2008 11:44 am
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Yeah, Richard--the old avatar photo is one of the very few candid action shots of me where I'm not drooling or making a face like I just cut one..... 
I'll return to it soon.
This one.....(which will no longer show up here once I change back, rendering my description awfully mysterious) is a dry fly, a trico (short for....something...). I can't recall the size but you can see its actual size next to the penny. I haven't fished in a real long time but I had some great times with that little thing during some late summer dusks. I actually stuck it up as an avatar just because I was responding to someone's post where his avatar has him holding a fine trout and I was looking for some fishing banter with him but it never happened..... |
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Richard Damron
From:
Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)
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Posted 28 Mar 2008 12:17 pm
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Jon -
Lived in Breckenridge, Colorado for 8 years. The fly fishing in that state is outstanding. Haven't had a chance to bend my good Sage rod here in Tennessee yet but I will.
Richard |
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Per Berner
From:
Skovde, Sweden
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Posted 29 Mar 2008 12:45 am
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| Stewart-MacDonald sell them for $41.32, and they would the last folks on the planet to sell fake stuff. First class people, first class service. |
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 29 Mar 2008 3:06 am
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| No, that's nickel, not chrome. Not the item I am talking about. |
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Curt Langston
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Posted 29 Mar 2008 4:07 am Not likely
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| Quote: |
| Would you suspect (or be wary of) counterfeits? |
Not at all. I doubt there would be much interest in counterfeiting tuners. Even Grover. More likely is that the eBayer has had these awhile and just wants to dump them. I'd buy them.
Now, pickups are a different thing. What with the Lawrence counterfeits and all.
But tuning machines.......I would not be afraid of them.
What is the sellers feedback?............ |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 29 Mar 2008 5:21 am
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New Grovers are Asian, and ultra-crap too - the company has sold out their name, reputation and future for a quick buck. -
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=130314
Stewart-MacDonald sold the counterfeit Bill Lawrence pickups for many years, and they're still selling finished guitar bodies with maple "tops" for $195 - they don't tell you the top is 1/16" thick.... a real, finished body will cost you at least $400 from Warmoth or USA Custom. I do buy some stuff from StewMac, they have some neat tools, but they're another company that will do anything for money.
Maple-"topped" bodies |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 29 Mar 2008 7:02 am
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Well they do say in their advert that they're swamp ash with a maple top. They're both hardwoods, and a lamination of the two should produce good sustain. I think I would rather have swamp ash with a maple top than pure maple. The two together would be more stable.
Remember that all those 50s and 60s Fender steels were made with swamp ash. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 29 Mar 2008 7:18 am
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| Quote: |
| Not at all. I doubt there would be much interest in counterfeiting tuners. Even Grover. |
First, what David said; the "real" ones are as much Grovers as the Jensen "reissues" are "Jensens". Only the name is the same and the product is different.
Secondly, apparently you've never been to NAMM, Curt. There are at least a dozen or more Asian companies with knock-off hardware - Grovers, Klusons, Hipshot bridges, Gisbon and Fender repro's - and it takes nothing to put a logo on them; these companies have laser equipment that can etch logos and make them look cast, even.
The major manufacturers always have people combing the floor...especially the lower level, where the smaller booths are...looking for counterfeits or trademark violations (two different things - counterfeits having logos on them or being perfect copies of non-logo'd items; trademark issues being anything from headstock shape to body design.
It's a huge problem in the industry and a difficult one, as international trade makes it logistically tough and expensive to get "cease and desist" orders and try to shut down those operations.
In some cases, counterfeits have come out of the same factories that make parts for US companies - One line making good stuff, the other cheap pot-metal clones.
You would not think that guitar hardware would be a big business worth the effort, but it's SO easy to clone stuff with computerized production nowadays it's worth doing even on items that don't have a huge sales volume - ZVex, which makes really good but unusual (and expensive) effects pedals by hand (and hand-painted), has had some of their products counterfeited. And remember, the US is only a part of the instrument-playing world - the Asian market, for example, is huge and most of the "name" instruments there are fakes.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Curt Langston
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Posted 29 Mar 2008 10:29 am
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| Quote: |
| Secondly, apparently you've never been to NAMM, Curt. |
Hmmmmmmm...........
Actually, I have been a few times.
Not that big a deal these last few years..........
I just don't feel a need to announce that fact to everyone in several different threads.
I don't think it makes me appear any more intelligent!
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 29 Mar 2008 1:06 pm
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| Hmmmm! I thought the Grovers on old Shobuds were nickel plated, and not chrome. In my opinion, nickel plating is more attractive. |
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 29 Mar 2008 5:37 pm
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John---I don't know why I set my mind on chrome. I just had a mental image of the nickel being more of a matte finish and I thought the chrome would sparkle. Since my steel has not been Ricky'd or Cooped the nickel actually might blend in more with the unpolished headstock. Hmmm. Now I don't know what I want. I wouldn't mind saving myself a few bucks with the nickel.
Anyone else have personal opinions on nickel vs. chrome finish? |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 29 Mar 2008 5:48 pm
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Jon,
The nickel plated tuners will buff up beautifully. New ones will shine with a lustre that is deep and warm. Really looks nicer than chrome, and matches much better with polished aluminum. I'm restoring a Madison Permanent, and I had the tuners re-plated in nickel, like they were when new. They look fantastic!
If your tuners work okay, just get a 6" by 1/2" buffing wheel and polish the old ones up. They'll look great, and they'll be original. Even without a wheel you can use Mother's polish. |
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 30 Mar 2008 5:12 am
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| John Billings wrote: |
Jon,
If your tuners work okay, .......... |
But alas, this is entirely about the fact that they don't. I would leave everything alone otherwise. I love the beautiful Buds I see when you & James and others post the results of your loving work but I'm just looking to bring the playability up a few notches (and I don't want to hack an incorrect tuning machine onto the headstock so unless there is proper alternative to the Grover I will have to go with it but it will be from a mainstream source, not the ebay thing).
You've sold me on nickel.
The reports of crappy product is distressing but I don't see any alternatives. Hopefully it is the minis that suffer the most---I don't think I'm reading about problems with the full sized Grovers but I may be missing something. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 30 Mar 2008 5:32 am
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My local luthier guy was always able to give me a better price than any online sellers or manufactures. He always beat Stew-mac by a mile! Alas, he's moved to the Islands. You might try contacting some local repair people, and get a price from them. They're often quite willing to sell with a lower profit margin.
I used to get my Thomastik-Infeld Jazz Bebop strings from him. They listed at $28.40 a set, and he sold them to me for $16.00. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 30 Mar 2008 7:59 am
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Curt, sorry if that sounded like an insult...I didn't mean it that way at all, but it WAS lousy wording!
I am surprised, though, that you didn't see all the knockoff hardware and counterfeits that just needed the right decal to be very convincing.
Back to Jon's original question - I've learned the hard way through decades of being in this business that you buy from reputable sources. I can 99% guarantee the foreign sources were selling fakes.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Harry Dietrich
From:
Robesonia, Pennsylvania, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 30 Mar 2008 1:53 pm
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Jon wrote
| Quote: |
| This one.....(which will no longer show up here once I change back, rendering my description awfully mysterious) is a dry fly, a trico (short for....something...). I can't recall the size but you can see its actual size next to the penny. I haven't fished in a real long time but I had some great times with that little thing during some late summer dusks. |
Jon
The fly you are refering to is the Tricorythodes stygaitus (tiny white winged black quill), and they are usually tied on a 22 or 24 Orvis Premium 1X hook.
Around here they hatch from July to Oct. in the morning...usually starting around 10:00 A.M. and continue until around eleven ...then the spinner fall starts and lasts for another half hour or so. We have a great hatch here on the Tulpehocken Creek near my house.
Didn't mean to hijack this thread...just thought you might like to know.
Happy steel pickin'
Harry  |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 30 Mar 2008 9:46 pm
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Just a note on Nickel and Chrome plating. Nickel can be polished to a high lustre to look like chrome. In fact, chrome by itself will look grey if not plated over mirror polished copper/nickel. When I worked for a plating company, the way they knew whether something was nickel or chrome, was that side by side, nickel will have a brown tinge to it where as chrome will have a blue tinge to it. Nickel will also tarnish requiring occasional polishing. Chrome will not tarnish.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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