Do you really need to have a double neck guitar

Keith White · Post by **Keith White** » 27 Mar 2008 11:01 am

Hi everyone i am new to the steel scene using single necks for the last 4 yrs. i made it to the dallas show,i went to buy a twin neck and got what i wanted .Ex jody camerons d10 fessenden.Its all down to choice what we want to play and listen to, i may not use c6 much but its there if you need to back up a song as i jam with a lot of jazz and blues people at our local bars. i think it opens up a whole new ballgame and makes the steel more versatile .Hope i am not upsetting the apple cart on my comment.best regards Keith white

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 27 Mar 2008 11:07 am

jim p. ...you're becoming my favorite forum member...seems that lately gigs are gravitating more toward the bay than the lake...but i'll keep you posted so we can have a beer and a laugh!

and i've got to chuckle about this whole forum phenomenon...it's fun....and then zumemm plays great together again on the c6 just to shut us up! right on!

Scott Hiestand · Post by **Scott Hiestand** » 27 Mar 2008 11:23 am

Stuart Legg wrote:In the top 40 country I don't hear any C6 or gospel tuning steel played.

I'll go with the other boys and agree, "it's there", just not nearly as much.

But just about any Dwight Yoakam, Alan Jackson, Aaron Tippin, George Strait (just to name a handful) CD will almost always have one or two cuts with C6 steel. And as someone else said, yes you can replicate C6 chords on E9 but it just isn't quite "the same", usually you can tell.

As for Universals, I can't speak about what I don't know, not to mention they scare me

Plus, double-necks look cool.

Scott Henderson · Post by **Scott Henderson** » 27 Mar 2008 11:38 am

Of course the real reason you have two necks is so you can do the Buddy Emmons Black album pose! I tried it on my Uni and almost chipped a tooth.

Jim Park · Post by **Jim Park** » 27 Mar 2008 12:20 pm

Hey Chris, This is a fun thread..........AND in plain english too!!! IMAGINE that.......lol it would be cool to cross paths one of these days

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 27 Mar 2008 12:33 pm

It is a bit of a mistake to think any one open chord tuning can do all that another can do. An open chord tuning is a blessing and a curse. The available open chords make playing certain harmonies easier, and, in particular, certain transitions easier. But some other harmonies and transitions are missing or difficult. This gives a special character to each tuning, which you can take advantage of, or fight.

You can get some of the missing harmonies by adding pedals and knee levers. But you only have two feet (one if you want to use the volume pedal) and two knees. If you start loading up with extra strings, you approach a diatonic pedal harp, and lose the advantages of the open chords.

When I took up the 12-string uni, I discovered it is not merely a combination of E9 and B6, but is a whole new tuning in its own right, capable of things neither of the other two can do. I now consider it a third pedal steel tuning. You could conceivably have it with one of the others on a D10/12, or on a tri-neck 10/10/12. There is also the Sacred Steel gospel/blues tuning of Chuck Campbell and Robert Randolph. So I see four major tunings out there being used by large numbers of players, with some success for all of them.

Some people see this multiplication of tunings and lack of a standard as a disadvantage, compared to older standardized instruments like piano. I don’t think so. The multiplication of tunings is just an inherent part of this new kind of instrument. Even 6-string guitars have always been played with multiple tunings. It comes from the small number of strings, and the ease of retuning (try that on a piano). It’s a natural thing, and is good. Pedal steelers have ingenuously adapted pedals and knee levers to make the retuning so convenient it can be done to great effect on the fly.

Pining for a single-neck standard may be misplaced. And predicting one may be foolhardy. I think it’s all good, and will be so indefinitely.

Fred Glave · Post by **Fred Glave** » 27 Mar 2008 2:00 pm

I think playing a U12 gives one a good answer to the question. Is the 6th tuning needed? Yes! We play oldies, country swing, and new stuff, and some old rock N" roll too. The 6th tuning is very valuable. I think that if you play only top 40/pop country, then what little 6th tuning you'd use could be done on E9. Again, it depends on the player's situation. Would you ask Asleep at the Wheel to hire a guy with just E9? They'd end the audition when they saw pedals. And do they work? I think so.

Barry Blackwood · Post by **Barry Blackwood** » 27 Mar 2008 2:14 pm

"The E9 will one day be considered a quaint artifact. A remnant of a particular period in the country genre of american popular music."

How so, Eduardo

I find the single neck to be aesthetically less pleasing than the double (neck). The size of the body seems too small to be sitting on those comparatively long legs. The SD-10 is an acceptable compromise IMHO.
What say y'all?

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 27 Mar 2008 2:47 pm

I'm thinking maybe Edward got C6 and E9 mixed up in that prediction, yes?

John De Maille · Post by **John De Maille** » 27 Mar 2008 2:52 pm

I've been playing a U-12 for about 3 yrs. now, and it seems to fit all the musical criteria for me. My band plays a lot of country plus a fair amount of western swing. I'm working in the Patsy Cline show right now and I'm able to play all of the tunes without a problem. It sounds perfect. I do not play jazz, though. The U-12 fits me perfectly. I have short arms and am not comfortable playing a D-10. That's probably just me, though.
I have seen D-10's with a lot more than the 8 pedal-5 knee lever setup. I've been told by a couple of steel builders, that, trying to add a whole lot of pedals and knees to a U-12 is not an easy thing to do and sort of prohibits its limitations. I can't attest to that, personally. But, I'm very happy with my 7&5 U-12.

Dave Zirbel · Post by **Dave Zirbel** » 27 Mar 2008 3:45 pm

You only really need a double neck guitar if you really want one.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 27 Mar 2008 4:29 pm

Dave Zirbel wrote:You only really need a double neck guitar if you really want one.

Absolutely correct, Dave. I played a single 12 E9th for 25 years. Eventually I wanted a double neck. Then I really wanted one. Now I need a double neck. A single neck just won't do anymore, not for me.

Roual Ranes · Post by **Roual Ranes** » 27 Mar 2008 5:18 pm

I am just a hacker but I cannot get through a night without both necks.

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 27 Mar 2008 5:22 pm

Jim Park said this is a fun thread. I agree. My son put in a url of me playing C6 on the E9 neck and I wasn't happy with his choice, so I tried to change to another song and now the url doesn't work. Sorry I wasted your time, but maybe this will make up for it. I wish I could play steel on my steel as well as Adrian does on his guitar.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xi3vmjxp4Fg

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 27 Mar 2008 6:40 pm

Once again, I see attempts here by some, to 'fractionalize' the steel guitar community, by essentially designating one tuning vs. another, as being the only one that should be preferred, or necessary, for this song or that song, Gospal or western swing, Hawaiian or whatever. The TUNING DOESN'T REALLY DETERMINE THAT!

I'm willing to bet you that Buddy Emmons or Lloyd Green or many another, could play one of your favorite, popular instrumental tunes....on E9th and/or C6th, and I'm willing to bet you, that a large majority on this Forum wouldn't have the musical competance to differeniate accurately between the two different tunings. It's not so much the TUNING that makes the difference, but rather, the artists' selection of song, the style in which he/she chooses to play that song; what personality does the artist want that TUNING to convey, etc.

I know for a fact, if you you've got the standard Emmons set-up on whatever brand guitar you choose, you're ability to play a half-dozen or more Speedy West tunes would be found to be next to impossible; note for note, that is.

Same story as it applies to countless other recording artists and their choice of tunings and selected instrumentals.

Quit trying to split the guitar community; and just pick a TUNING, to play the song of your choice. THEN, move on and apply the same thinking to your next tune. My QUAD Bigsby had four necks, with 8-strings each and a total of six pedals. THERE WAS A REASON for that. The EMMONS' set-up hadn't even hit the BIG TIME as yet.

Many a beautiful song can be played on E9th TUNING without even touching a pedal. Other songs can be played on E9th with selected pedal work and it still won't have that nasal twangy twang Nashville sound. Personally, I believe that some of you are unwittingly locking yourself into a mind-set that is going to do your playing, for the long-term, more harm than good. IMHO....

Jonathan Cullifer · Post by **Jonathan Cullifer** » 27 Mar 2008 8:45 pm

Yes, the E9 is what is demanded in most modern country, but stepping outside of modern country into many other non-country areas (or rockabilly), C6 is essential. I don't get called for many predominantly C6 gigs or sessions, but those that I do get called for are not usually country.

Edward Meisse · Post by **Edward Meisse** » 27 Mar 2008 11:02 pm

Y'know, I believe you're right ,Ray. Now that I think of it, a member of this very forum, to wit Basil Henriques, has been known to play a wide variety of tunes on a conspicuously UNtwangy sounding E9 (or is it an E13). No doubt others are doing so as well without me noticing.

Scott Hiestand · Post by **Scott Hiestand** » 28 Mar 2008 4:13 am

Ray

Respectfully, I'm not sure I am getting the gist of your post. On the one hand you are saying (I'll paraphrase) you think some here are trying to split the steel guitar community by over-simplifying or stereo-typing what neck should be used for what song. But on the other hand, you are saying there are reasons for different tunings (like your quad Bigsby). I agree, there are reasons.

I'll grant you that Lloyd Green or Buddy Emmons could take just about any song, play it on a given tuning and we wouldn't be able to tell (if they were trying to fool us, that is). But Buddy is Buddy and Lloyd is Lloyd. I don't think there is anything wrong (in general) with, for example, identifying the E9 neck with traditional Country and the C6 neck with Western Swing or Jazz. Because in the majority of cases, those tunings are what are played for those genres. But not always, and of course I see the value in not locking yourself too far in to a tuning's perceived strong suit. Branching out is good.

So while I agree with you that tuning "doesn't determine" song style (or shouldn't), speaking for myself, I do jump between necks based on style. That's just being pragmatic. If that somehow hinders my long-term progress on the instrument then I guess I'll have to live with that.

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 28 Mar 2008 7:53 am

Just a personal preference but I think the only thing that would require two necks is Doug Jernigan's "Bonnie Marie"....

b0b, you mentioned slide guitar parts such as what's done in rock and blues being played on C6th? From what I alway thought, open E was one of the most common slide guitar tunings as played by Duane Allman and others. It seems like it'd be much easier (and authentic) on an E9 as the last thing you want in that type of music is a "6th" sound. When in a band situation and I want to play distorted "slide" licks I just play E9 and leave the pedals alone.......

As far a C6th on E9, some years ago on TNN they had a program where an artist would spotlight a new album by doing live performances of the cuts. One featured Mack Wiseman with BE on steel, but the one I'm thinking of was Hank Thompson's album and the featured steeler was Hal Rugg. I watched the whole show and Hal never went to his "inside" neck on any tune. Everything was played on his E9. And, this was a "Hank Thompson" album, think about it, Hank Thompson on E9......Cool, eh! JH in VA.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 28 Mar 2008 8:38 am

Jerry Hayes wrote:b0b, you mentioned slide guitar parts such as what's done in rock and blues being played on C6th? From what I alway thought, open E was one of the most common slide guitar tunings as played by Duane Allman and others. It seems like it'd be much easier (and authentic) on an E9 as the last thing you want in that type of music is a "6th" sound. When in a band situation and I want to play distorted "slide" licks I just play E9 and leave the pedals alone.......

I switch depending on the key of the tune. Blues in C or G doesn't give you much in the way of open strings on the E9th, and it puts at the 6th and 11th frets a lot - not the best sounding positions IMHO. Here's an example in G on the C6th:
Kitchen_Blues.mp3

You don't have to get a "6th" sound from the back neck if that's not what the song calls for. You don't have to get a "country" sound from the front neck, either. I did this one on E9th:
Alva's_Occidental_Melody.mp3

A lot of western swing lays real well on the E9th. Remember, E13 and A6th are among the most popular non-pedal tunings for western swing. Tunes written for those tunings lay at exactly the same frets on E9th.

Barry Scott · Post by **Barry Scott** » 28 Mar 2008 9:25 am

I envy all you guys who have the ability to even play and understand both necks...or a combination as the case may be. I wish I had years of playing time behind me. But knowing what's ahead is very satisfying. Guys who can play make both of the more common tunings sound beautiful. For me it's E9.Would I like to have a second neck? SURE, but I have so much to learn still. This much I do know....you just can't argue that when you have a solo like the one played by Mr. Brumley in Dwight Yoakam's song "The Heart That You Own", it doesn't get any better. Not only melodically beautiful, but the tone is as good as it gets. Yep....E9 for me till I can play ( and afford a new double neck like my cousin Dave Scott ).

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 28 Mar 2008 9:41 am

I actually agree with Ray's post. An anomi... anom.. well, you know..

If you want a different tuning for a gig, recording, or ANY reason, DO IT.

It ain't like Rusty Young, or SPeedy West is going to send a hit squad out after you.

Buddy Charleton until '77-8 used the High G on the C neck.

While I was taking lessons from him, one of them was 'Almost to Tulsa'. His tune.

When he got to the part that used the High G, he found a good sounding run that used the D on Top.

I learned it, he was as happy as he could have been at my effort, and that was that.

The original post?

I dunno, it's up to you.

If memory serves me, a guy we all know took a Sierra single neck and used it as a C6 tuning.

EJL

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 28 Mar 2008 2:55 pm

The purpose of the C6th neck is to have something to blame when you can't find the lick. With just the E9th (like my SD-10), when the lick is elusive, it's easier to just say it mustv'e been on the C6th neck that ain't there. Give up, go on...

Mickey Adams · Post by **Mickey Adams** » 28 Mar 2008 4:29 pm

Nope...!...LOL

Stuart Legg · Post by **Stuart Legg** » 28 Mar 2008 6:29 pm

Ray Minich blaming not having the other neck is a trick that even Bo never thought of. Bo messed up my last url of him playing C6 on E9 on purpose so to get even I fixed a temp. site and I'm putting it on again. Here it is Whiskey Bent C6 on E9. http://www.boleggs.com/boleggstri7/Gig.html

The Steel Guitar Forum

Do you really need to have a double neck guitar

Do we rearly want a twin neck

Re: Do you really need to have a double neck guitar

Doubleneck guitar

From an olde man's perspective.............

Ok, ok....

LOL