United Parcel Smashers

Steve Hamill · Post by **Steve Hamill** » 20 Mar 2008 5:05 am

I wouldn't use UPS if the shipping was free. Taking them to court, or threatening it is about the only way to deal with them. They reject all claims out of hand the first time no matter what the circumstances are. Be persistent. They wont offer you anything until they realize you wont go away.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 20 Mar 2008 5:26 am

I've had two claims with them out of maybe 5-600 shipments; both were settled with no hassle and I had reimbursement checks within two weeks of filing. In both cases the packages were well-packed (by me - not them - and they never opened the boxes to "pre-inspect" the packing as some have said they have to do to even consider a claim) and there was crush damage. It happens. It happens with every shipper. I've followed the guidelines I was given about 8-9 years ago by a UPS warehouse manager; pack your item so it will survive an 8-foot fall onto concrete. If you do that, 1) there's MUCH less chance of any damage, and 2) if there IS a claim, they process it with no problems.

"This side up", "fragile", and exposed handles are useless - the computer scannners and automated conveyors don't know what "up" is, everything follows the same processing path (no shipper hand-carries "fragile" items through the system) and exposed *anything* just provides something to get caught on a conveyor, plus it it violates all the shippers' packing guidelines and can void any claim immediately.

99% of the time damage results from bad packing.

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 20 Mar 2008 6:01 am

I ship at least 100 cartons per week for the last 32 years......

Until about 8-10 years ago, claims were easily settled. Since their third party insurance program.....you have to fight for damaged goods.....(if it's lost, no contest.....you get paid)

The first thing that they automatically do is send a form letter stating that the carton was not packed properly.....from there you have to fight them and be relentless....they will finally pay you if you indeed did pack it properly......pay close attention to their packaging requirements (peanuts are not proper packaging for heavy objects)

You are guilty until you prove yourself innocent......this has been my experience

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 20 Mar 2008 6:13 am

Pay THEM to pack it. It's pretty hard for them to denie a claim when THEY pack it. I always put the recievers name as the insured, because they are paying for shipping. They then own the policy. To make all of this real easy, just use DHL.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 20 Mar 2008 7:25 am

As a professional "art handler/shipper" I concur with what Jim Sliff said.

Many disagree about the exposed handles...I think they are asking for trouble for the reason Jim mentioned but others swear by it. Ya know...i think I will ask the UPS guy today when i see him...if I can remember to

Don Poland · Post by **Don Poland** » 20 Mar 2008 8:26 am

HowardR wrote:.......(peanuts are not proper packaging for heavy objects)........

I just sent a drum throne to Bobby Bowman about 2 weeks ago and paid for the shipper to pack the item. They used peanuts to pack it. It weighed about 24 lbs, once it was packed

Makes ya wonder, don't it??

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 20 Mar 2008 8:40 am

I would NEVER trust my stuff to one of their packers. It may be their fault if it gets damaged....but it still really sucks when your stuff gets damaged regardless of whose fault it is and how easy the claim is settled. Its like if you cross the street and get hit by a car...it may be the driver of the cars fault...but that dont make your broken bones feel ANY better at all.

Ive seen those guys pack stuff....NEVER, not my stuff...no way.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 20 Mar 2008 9:05 am

Ben Jones wrote:I would NEVER trust my stuff to one of their packers. It may be their fault if it gets damaged....but it still really sucks when your stuff gets damaged regardless of whose fault it is and how easy the claim is settled.

Ive seen those guys pack stuff....NEVER, not my stuff...no way.

First off. I personally pack the guitar in the case---THEY pack the case in their box---while I am there.
Secondly, Jim S. is the first one Ive ever heard say that it's easy to get a claim settled. I've never been able to get a claim settled with out huge hassels. Infact, they denied my last on a speaker. Told me if they would have packed it, no problem on the claim. They do not know whether or not you know how to pack something right or wrong, any more than you know THEY do. But it IS their biggest and most favorite loop-hole. If you intend to bother with their insurance, you better pay a little more and make them be the last to have handled your goods. That is, if you intend to win the "claim war". YMMV

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 20 Mar 2008 9:48 am

The "insurance" is worthless...as many who have tried to file claims are finding out...even saw it on the news a few months ago...enough funny wordplay in the insurance service agreement to make Bill Clinton jealous.

well...i asked the fedex guy about exposed handles and was very surprised at his response. He said he sees MANY packages where the handle area of the box is cut out to expose the handle and that this is FAR preferable for them...and for your package. he said they never get caught on the belts and insures your package is carried upright and not tossed.

I'll ask the UPS guy the same question when he comes by this afternoon.

Hey, no offense to anyone who wants to pack their stuff, or have someone else pack it, anyway they choose. Just my opinon as someone who had done this for his job for many years with anear 100% success rate. YMMV as always. Cheers.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 20 Mar 2008 9:58 am

Yeah Ben, when you ship, it gets real risky, and there is no real standard, it seems. The handle exposed deal is a classic example. Last year there was a thread where someone talked to the shippers and they were told it's a bad idea to expose handles, and now your info is just the opposite. I have always thought the handle exposed was the better, myself. I enjoy your input, Ben.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 20 Mar 2008 10:14 am

I agree james...one person says one thing another something completely different. I am fully expecting the UPS driver to say the exact opposite as the fedex guy did...we will see.

I think one thing we can count on as being completely reliable is that when it comes to ANY kind of insurance....the insurance companies first goal, job #1, is to deny you your claim no matter what or how, right or wrong. Katrina anyone?

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 20 Mar 2008 10:23 am

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 20 Mar 2008 11:15 am

When you need information, call UPS......don't rely on the drivers. As nice as they can be, they don't always have the right information.

I use rigid insulation for packing guitars.....on the bottom, the sides, and on the top......the guitar case is surrounding by it, inside of the shipping carton. Any space is filled in with crumpled kraft paper.......this has worked well for me......

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 20 Mar 2008 11:24 am

I ship UPS exclusive, average package weight 6 to 15 lbs. I ship approx 300 packages/year, I file at best 3 or 4 claims per year, they settle within a very short period, less than two weeks. I have personally never even had them question a claim over the past 5 years or so...

I have also shipped half a dozen D10s, Amplifiers, Guitars etc, never had a problem, but I did pack them all myself much like mentioned above. With the Steels, even though some here will argue, I left the case handles exposed, the DRIVERS wanted to KISS me, but I wouldn't let them.

Electronics and Instruments are a different breed, you are really supposed to have them verify before hand what you are shipping and the value. This comes from shipping fraud years back, the scam was that someone would ship something expensive ,already BROKEN, they would receive it and put in a claim as damaged during shipment.

UPS shipping policy is very clear, double box for electronics and approval/inspection for hi ticket items.

those UPS stores are not professional packers, they will put an amplifier in a box and fill it with peanuts, like that is going to actually protect it.

The only broken Guitar I received was from the Post Office, and they made good right away.

Ben Elder · Post by **Ben Elder** » 20 Mar 2008 11:46 am

Steve understates the indictment against UPS almost to the point of ironic euphemism. Any accurate characterization of their attitude and performance when it comes to shipments they've wrecked would require jargon not only not unavailable to us as Forum users, but it would necessitate that vocabulary in such quantity and density as to make Howard Stern and the membership of 37 Stevedores' Union locals faint. They deliberately throw up all walls and obstacles to make even the most determined, righteous and persistent aggrieved customers wilt in the face of not even defense, but aggression. I can't think of an organization I have as little positive feeling for: they rank somewhere below Enron and only slightly above the Third Reich.

Why do they call themselves "Brown"? I can guess.

(Not that FedEx is much better, but they speak politely while they're blowing smoke and not doing a damn thing in the world to help. Post Office--no major problems--and I once sent about a dozen boxes with bubble-wrapped guitars yin-yang style, two to a box without cases. One reason I take stamp-price increases in stride...)

Walter Killam · Post by **Walter Killam** » 20 Mar 2008 12:11 pm

I've seen many sides of the UPS equation, from working for a mail order business that shipped 90% of it's products, to shipping personal valuables, but I think what opened my eyes the most was playing in a band with a couple of UPS long distance drivers where I got to see inside the organization. UPS is run by people, some good at what they do, some bad, its a gamble shipping your stuff no matter what vehicle you use, & I have never had a successful claim with UPS, FED EX, or DHL (plenty of damgage though). That said, I will NEVER ship DHL again, they don't track thier shipments, & the drivers LIE about making deliveries. I simply won't ship anything I can't afford to lose, and I never expect insurance to pay out. Fool me once...

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 20 Mar 2008 12:44 pm

Kinda of Ironic, A gal called today stating she never received two packages we sent her.She wanted me to file a claim for missing items so she could get a return on her purchase.

SOOoooo, up to the UPS website I traveled, over to my shipping history section and then the TRACK section.

So, what did I find, yes indeed both packages had been delivered, and yes there was another "click here for proof" of delivery, so I did, and there it was , a copy of the signed delivery slip, and guess who signed it ? yep the lady that called. So now I call her back and tell her the news and she says, not possible, and I say, is your name XXX she says yes, I emailed her the signature copy..and uhh..she has not called back yet...

and I doubt she will.

One can only imagine how many claims shippers paid because of these types of incidents either by mistake or on purpose.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 20 Mar 2008 1:03 pm

Where I work, we ship out our steels surrounded by styrofoam. We get an insulation pack at Loew's. Two sheets on the bottom, two sheets on the top, and up to four sheets on the sides. A mile of packing tap around every inch (almost!) of the cardboard box. Our cases are so well-designed and fit, that no internal packing materials are needed. The guitars cannot, and do not move in their cases. Fedex. No problems. Yet.
Next time I ship one of my own guitars to Ricky or Coop, I think I will photograph every single step of the process.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 20 Mar 2008 1:29 pm

Tony Prior wrote:Kinda of Ironic, A gal called today stating she never received two packages we sent her.She wanted me to file a claim for missing items so she could get a return on her purchase.

SOOoooo, up to the UPS website I traveled, over to my shipping history section and then the TRACK section.

So, what did I find, yes indeed both packages had been delivered, and yes there was another "click here for proof" of delivery, so I did, and there it was , a copy of the signed delivery slip, and guess who signed it ? yep the lady that called. So now I call her back and tell her the news and she says, not possible, and I say, is your name XXX she says yes, I emailed her the signature copy..and uhh..she has not called back yet...

and I doubt she will.

One can only imagine how many claims shippers paid because of these types of incidents either by mistake or on purpose.

Tony, i have an interesting story for you...one of our fedex drivers decide to pay another fedex driver to deliver part of his route, and what he does is forge signatures for all the packages that are to be delivered by this proxy driver

I found this out when i asked the proxy driver why i didnt have to sign for anything one day. So this guy sends out all his packages with another driver pre-"signed" for. outrageous indeed and if he hasnt already been caught he's bound to sooner or later when a package comes up missing and they ask to see the signature. I also had a DHL driver sign for me one time and laugh...i said "Hey!" and he laughed and said my signature was illegible anyway (which is true).

Im sure in your case tho this lady just signed received and forgot. but man, there are some real cavalier cowboys out there....

I missed the UPS delivery today so no further revelations into the exposed handle thing.

Rusty Rogers · Post by **Rusty Rogers** » 20 Mar 2008 4:51 pm

I love UPS!!!

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 20 Mar 2008 6:21 pm

When you need information, call UPS......don't rely on the drivers. As nice as they can be, they don't always have the right information.

What Howard says.Drivers will tell you anything. But I also agree with Rusty.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 21 Mar 2008 1:01 am

our UPS drive does NOT look like that !

I hope she's wearing safety Shoes !

Paul Redmond · Post by **Paul Redmond** » 21 Mar 2008 1:58 am

That's why I use FedEx instead of UPS. I did this at the urging of a UPS manager!! Go figure!!
PRR

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 21 Mar 2008 5:08 am

I agree with Tony Prior about everything except the handle issue - which IS a convenience for drivers but is a liability on the automated conveyor and increases chances of a jam-up and fall (this according to UPS management, who also said *some* of their claims people would see a hole in the box for a handle and deny a claim as "insufficiently packed").

I've had less claims than Tony, but the same results - all settled within 2 weeks with no hassle at all.

Every time I've gotten to the bottom of a claim issue, it seems to be a packing problem.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 21 Mar 2008 7:36 am

Bobby Boggs wrote:
When you need information, call UPS......don't rely on the drivers. As nice as they can be, they don't always have the right information.
What Howard says.Drivers will tell you anything. But I also agree with Rusty.

well i agree...I mean the driver probably never sees the belts or the crago holds or any of that, how would he know if handles get caught up in the machinery? he just knows its easier FOR HIM..but I just thought I'd pass that info along anyway. Today I'll try and get a another opinion from the UPS driver...limited as his knowledge may be.

Ive found that you get the same variance in response if you call the offices with questions or problems as you do from the drivers. Whenever I had a problem with UPS i couldnt resolve with the person on the phone...I would simply call back again in ten minutes...get a different person on the phone and get a different answer.

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