Bobbe's Newsletter: Steel Players, Traditional Country Music

[Steve Waltz]

www.vivalasvegas.net



www.rockabillyhall.com Rockabilly hall of fame

[Dan Tyack]

I'm no expert on the bluegrass scene (much less the 'true' bluegrass scene), but one of the biggest bluegrass festivals in the country is held about 30 miles from where I live (Wintergrass in Tacoma, WA). It's an incredibly vibrant scene, and also pretty young (I'd say 60% under 35 with maybe 20% under 25). One thing that seems to be driving it is that a very large percentage of the attendees attempt to play the music, with a big percentage in the beginner/intermediate level. I don't see much evidence of committees or formal organizations having much influence over the thing, it's just a big party. I do believe that one reason for the resurgence of bluegrass is that it's pretty easy for people to buy instruments and learn how to play well enough to play in a jam.

[Joe Drivdahl]

This quote seems fitting:

"Are you gonna do something, or just stand there and bleed?"

-Kurt Russel as Wyatt Earp in Tombstone.

Are we gonna do something, or just sit around and discuss it?

Joe

[Larry Sewell]

Dave,
Your absolutely right, in cloneing the Blue Grass way of presenting shows. The fire houses, VFW, Moose etc, and small festivals.
Instead of complaining that the stations won't play there music, I have offen wondered why the George Jone's, Ray Price's and some of the great's of that era didn't form an organization to buy some radio stations or start their own Opery and promote traditional music.
But, then again, here in Md., in the 50's 60's 70's we had the New River Ranch and in Pa. Sunset Park, both of which brought in some name brand country stars. Both fell by the way side, and are long gone.
In my opinion, you would not only have to have corporate sponsors but hopefully seek the help and cooperation of some of the traditional stars like
maybe Bill Anderson, Connie Smith, Stonewall and others.
Finding someone with the time, expertise and the contacts to get something like this started is the 64 dollar question.

[Craig A Davidson]

Larry you might be touching on something. I do however believe that the whole classic country thing should be moved out of Nashville. They really don't want it and never really did. It has always been treated like a red- headed step-child. Maybe take far from there. Also to start something would take some bucks, especially if you wanted to include a record label and a performing center. But I think it just might work. A bunch of us that are interested should stay in touch and keep working on it.

[Ben Jones]

I do believe that one reason for the resurgence of bluegrass is that it's pretty easy for people to buy instruments and learn how to play well enough to play in a jam.

I can attest to this....my brother and sister in law attend wintergrass every year and picked up a mando and guitar as their first instruments....and I dont even think they listen to bluegrass cds, they just dig the party and jammin on their new instruments. They are stone cold beginners and do not feel intimidated at these things. something to think about...but I guess the goal isnt to bring in new people but organize the diehards? . Interesting thread...and i wish you guys the best of luck.

[Dave Mudgett]

I agree that an important long-term goal should be to bring in new people. But I think the history of how bluegrass organizations and festivals started was to first consolidate the die-hards. Then after the core was firmly established with its own strong identity, others naturally gravitated to it.

I think the key to success is to have that very strong identity and the devotion of a strong core of die-hards who are hardheaded enough to withstand the inevitable onslaught of pressure to dilute or morph the format. I think a strong gravitational pull requires a critical mass of die-hards who will sustain the movement through thick and thin.

Really - a lot of people in the music biz are motivated by money, and will go whichever way the wind blows. That is entirely reasonable for a primarily commercial venture, but that is emphatically not what happened in the bluegrass world. I think we should take a move from their playbook. It has served them very well.

I occasionally play both bluegrass and country jam sessions out in the country here in rural PA. There are more devoted to bluegrass, but there are also some which are more oriented to traditional country, the way I'm discussing it here. And even some of the bluegrass folks like it when I bring my pedal steel. I think when you get out in the "real" country, there are a lot of connections. The "country" jam sessions are very much like bluegrass jam sessions. In fact, many of these musicians can move back and forth between bluegrass and honkytonk country with ease. To me, bluegrass is a specialized form of traditional country music.

I put this thread up as a trial balloon - to brainstorm ideas, see what kind of support there is, talk through the potential problems, and especially how steel players can help with this. I don't see this as remotely simple to do. I'm not really sure if there's enough interest to do it - I think it would take a concerted effort by a lot of people. But I think doing something like this is important if traditional country music - as many of us tend to like to think about it - will survive on the long haul. I'm thinking decades or centuries. I think bluegrass has secured their future for at least decades. I am much less confident about country.

[Brad Malone]

Young people want an experience, they don't want to just listen to good music.<<


Hey Donny, I think you are on to something. When I hear these Stars come on the GOO, they talk 5 minutes about how grateful they are to be on the great GOO..young people don't want to hear that humble pie talk..they want the band to Rock out and create some excitement..the cotton picking days are over and no one cares about them but a few old guys.

[Brad Malone]

in Pa. Sunset Park<<


Hey Larry, Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it a real bad snow storm that destroyed Sunset Park in the Mid 90's...I seem to remember someone telling me that...I know it was the oldest Country Music Park in Pa. The place looked like it was never improved from 1930...price of admission was really cheap around $10 per ticket.

[Larry Sewell]

Brad,
I think your right. In about 1992 we had a bad ice storm here on the Eastern Shore. From what I've heard it was either ice or heavy snow that torn the pavilion down, and they never reopened. I believe Ola Belle Reed and her brother, Alex Campbel owned the park. I understand they were kind of frugal and didn't spend much money on the place and usually complained about paying the performers.
It was kind of a family park with playground equipment for the kids and I think no alcohol.
I saw Ray Price and the Cherokee cowboys in 1962. The last show I saw, was Kitty Wells, Johnny Wright and about the last show Bill Monroe did.
A friend of mine, Mel Price and his band Santa Fe Rangers were the stage band and MC in the summer or late fall of 1952. Hank Williams Sr. was there and Mel backed him. Mel made a reel to reel tape, probably one of the last recording Hank made. I went with Mel down to Mercury Records in Nashville when he sold them the recording.
A lot of great times up there.

[Brad Malone]

Yeah Larry, The place was a real dump but a cheap place to see the Stars...I saw Kitty Wells, ET, Ray Price, Bill Anderson and some others over the years back in the 70's and 80's. It was located in the heart of Mushroom country in West Grove, Pa. Too bad places like this disappeared..it was wholesome entertainment on a Sunday afternoon.

[Wayne Cox]

Once again,Bobbe is right on target. A couple of years ago I invited the band I often play with,to go with me to a couple of Steel Conventions. Bear in mind that they are primarily R&B,not country,but they loved it and made comments such as:"I'm hooked on steel conventions;it's the only place you can go and hear real country music anymore!" And when Don Helms played,they got excited and said "Wow man! THERE'S THAT SOUND I REMEMBER!" Maybe their statements were not eloquent but it was obvious that something magical had touched their hearts;something both magical and real!
~~W.C.~~

[James Leaman]

This is probably the most important post I have seen on the forum for a long time IMHO. Bobbe and Dave are right on the money. I can also say that if Wisconsin had Craig Davidson on board we would have one heck of a chapter. He puts together an incredible Dairy Steel Show with his talent and that of many other real pro's. Craig if you are serious about getting involved in a program, let me know because I would love to help. Jim

[Bill Mayville]

If BlueGrass has surged ahead of Traditional Country
music ,it could be because the majority of people,called Fans,who support the music,are much younger than the musicians of country music.
I hate to say that ,because I am right in there.
When I go to the Musicals around here I notice the guys in the band are getting up in age.Then I look again and notice ,They are almost as old as I am.
I wonder.
Bill

[Dave Mudgett]

If BlueGrass has surged ahead of Traditional Country music, it could be because the majority of people,called Fans,who support the music,are much younger than the musicians of country music.

Oh, you are so correct - bluegrass has lots of young fans now, also lots of young performers. It's a vibrant musical style with lots of grass-roots support from all ages.

But I don't think it was like that in the early-mid 60s when this bluegrass organization/festival movement really got going. The thing they had going for them was a mainstream push from "the big folk scare" in the late 50s and early 60s.

After that burst died down, my sense is that it went back to equilibrium and gradually gained momentum after they organized. Carlton Haney's Fincastle Bluegrass Festival near Roanoke on Labor Day 1965 is generally recognized as the first big one - with Ralph Rinzler promoting Bill Monroe as the father of bluegrass and also managing Doc Watson. They could have settled into the "rigor mortis" phase and insisted that only the old artists were great, and alienated younger musicians and fans. But they didn't, and did that without selling out one iota.

One thing about bluegrass that I always noticed - the diehards were very tough about what they would consider bluegrass. But I have always found them extremely supportive of young people, both as players and fans. It was always extremely family-oriented. I think any organization of trad country music needs to do the same.

Another thing - bluegrass can be a pretty flashy style - plenty of speed-pickin' and musical energy. Not all of it, but a fast bluegrass breakdown is enough to get everybody jumpin'. Traditional country certainly can offer that kind of thing, but when I hear most traditional country bands, they don't. Repertoire is often limited to medium shuffles, ballads, and the occasional swing thing. I like that stuff too, but I think Joe Maphis, Jimmy Bryant, and Speedy West type material would work great too. I would hope that the Emmylou Hot Band and Ricky Skaggs type barn-burners would be welcome also. There's lots of more recent country music that's well within the parameters - Randy Travis, Patty Loveless, and so on.

I guess what I'm saying is that "traditional" does not have to mean completely "subdued". I think young people can relate to hot pickin', and that can work in a traditional country context. I think if it's done right, with a mix of styles, depth, and a bit of flash, young people will naturally be attracted. But if this is presented like chamber music at the Boston Museum of Fine Arts, it probably won't. I'm not talking smoke, mirrors and light shows - that would be a real bad idea. But I am talking about making it FUN, with some variety to appeal to anybody who really likes trad country music.

Just more ideas - I'm seeing lots of interesting ideas here.

[Fred Glave]

Excellent post! I agree that an organization similar to that of Bluegrass is needed. I play Monday nights at a country jam. It is attended almost exclusively by senior citizens. We have 4 bands and one of them is call Country Tradition. All the bands play older country music or swing. It is basically a supper club with entertainment from 5pm to 10pm. Young people often wander in from the bar on other side of the club, and sometimes they stay awhile, dance or listen. If we happen to be playing hot that night, they stay longer.

[Joe Miraglia]

Maybe we should stop calling it Traditional country music and just call it, Country music.Calling it the Grand ole Opry makes it sound old. Old Timers music,Old country,Older country music, Just maybe we are turning young people off by calling it old. In a way we are keeping then from hearing the music we call- Traditional,You know what they think about old , I know I got grandkids.

[Jim Sliff]

Having sent the better part of 2 1/2 decades playing primarily bluegrass, I have to say that it is NOT what it appears to be from the outside - it is one of the most political, divisive, "musical organizations" I've ever been around. It's as bad (or good, depending on your perspective) as steel guitar/traditional country as far as die-hards refusing to accept fresh ideas. I can recall silly things like losing points in a contest for not wearing matching shirts, and having Jethro Burns (one of the judges) quit as a judge after learning about it. Also having the announcer walk on the stage during the third song of a 45-minute set and saying thank you - giving us the hook - because we played a Beatles song. Then there were festivals that banned electric basses - not a "bluegrass" instrument.

This ran through the 70's and 80's...then during the 90's and early 21st century you couldn't buy a bluegrass gig ( none of which paid more than peanuts - even "name" players like Bill Monroe hawked records at festivals to make money) and most of the second-tier players bought Teles, learned drums, or did whatever it took and joined country-rock bands. Festivals (with the exception of the big ones and some strong ones in the south) evaporated - southern california went from 10 or so festivals a year to none on a regular basis.

"Brother" brought about a "resurgence" in "bluegrass" - which is a laugh to bluegrass players, since most of the music is about as "bluegrass" as The Kingston Trio...or Alison Krauss, for that matter - a pop singer with bluegrass instruments.

Sorry - not trying to rant, and I understand the point being made...but the bluegrass comparison is not really relevant - at least to one who played through all of it.

[Dave Mudgett]

Well, Jim - I've played bluegrass for a while too. I know the die-hards are hard-headed, I said that earlier. Yup - it can be political, divisive, and difficult. Yup, I've seen 'em refuse to let an electric bass onstage. Or a snare drum. But even some of the names did it back when - JD Crowe comes to mind.

Still - the bluegrassers retained their identity through it all. Gradually, evolutionary change was - sometimes tenuously - accepted. There are still divisions between hardcore traditionalists and newgrassers, but they hung in there.

Maybe the west coast is different. But in my experience, bluegrass never went down for the count around here - New England, Mid-Atlantic, Mid-South, Mid-East, and so on. It's never been the "flavor of the month", and never really paid well. Whenever I was in Tennessee at a jam, Bill Monroe would frequently show up and jam with people if he was in town - it's peoples' music. It's cycled up and down some, but the hard core was always there. I don't think that traditional country can boast this remotely on the scale that bluegrass can.

No doubt, there would be similar problems trying to organize traditional or honkytonk country - maybe more so. Hard heads can be difficult to deal with. But that has two sides - the hard heads are also needed to keep the music from veering off into whatever direction the money goes.

Joe - you say to "just call it country music". To me, the problem is that is already taken - we spend a lot of time griping about "what have they done to our country music". To me, the problem is that the term "country music" means completely different things to different people. Hey - if you know a way to get that stuff back on this track great - but I think it's a waste of time. Maybe "traditional country music" is the wrong tag - I tend to agree. Anybody got a better one?

To do something like this, one needs to have a way to establish an independent identity from what's going on in commercial country, and then hard-headedly fend off those who would try to force it elsewhere. There's an uneasy balance between staying true to the origin and permitting evolution that is in that spirit. No easy answers - just throw it up against the wall, probably knock heads some, but try to make it go.

[Dan Beller-McKenna]

Up until last Saturday, I might have suggested using "Honky Tonk" instead of traditional country. We played a line-dance on Saturday and the organizer told us she had to drop the slogan "Genuine Honky Tonk" from our flyer; her crowd didn't know what it meant and it made them "nervous."



FWIW: I was reading an article on Brahms (my day job) yesterday, where the author (a die-hard classical musician who would faint to know [let alone hear] what I play on the weekend) referred to Brahms playing "honky tonk" pianos in bars. Worlds were colliding (to quote George Costanza).



If you're after the younger crowd, maybe call it "Roots" Country--at least until the next buzz-word rises to the surface.

Dan

[Dan Najvar]

It seems to me that younger people have wanted the same things for as long as I can remember and a couple of those things are: something they can call their own and something to rebel against. They want their own identity. I play steel, dobro and mandolin for The Todd Mankin Band here in the D/FW area and I gotta tell ya I have never played in front of such enthusiastic younger crowds in my life!!! Here in Texas it seems that hard core country music is far from needing a resurgence, either that or we are just in the thick one. From what people are always telling me, steel players are hard to come by because we are just that busy!! As far as trying to take the steel to a new level, I think that may be a difficult thing to do, though I myself do use a wah pedal and heavy distortion and recently purchased a "talk box" so I am able to show up some of the guitar players I come across from time to time. lol!! Anyway on my side of the fence country music and the steel guitar aint goin anywhere anytime soon.

Danny

[Ben Jones]

Jim's descrciption of the bluegrassers is pretty much how I see them from an outsiders perspective ....and of course its always nice to have our beliefs confirmed

From my VERY brief interaction with them i always got the impression that they were really uptight and strict...like if I added ANYTHING to "Red Haired Boy" that wasnt in the tab, it was a blasphemy of sorts.

and yet...my inlaws who go to these grasserfests as total beginners say they have a blast and dont seem afraid or belittled for their noobishness on their instruments.

man, Im babblin...sorry.

[Joe Miraglia]

Dave, I said Country Music,not Country Music. What I;m I saying? .The Country Music thats just for, people from rural areas , roots from just a few places or a time frame, or Country Music for everyone,from any area and having different roots.
What has changed is Country Music has expanded all over the country into other areas all kinds of people with different roots. Yes, thats why the music is different in some ways and we don't like some of it,but now the pie is bigger.I must say not just the U.S.A. but the all over the World ,isn't that great. Joe

[Dave Mudgett]

I play steel, dobro and mandolin for The Todd Mankin Band here in the D/FW area and I gotta tell ya I have never played in front of such enthusiastic younger crowds in my life!!!

Yeah, Dan - we know it's still happening in Texas, and probably some other places. What do we do to make this happen elsewhere?

Dave, I said Country Music,not Country Music.

Joe - you lost me, but that's OK.

Yes, I agree - it's all over the world. But I think it needs to be organized.

and yet...my inlaws who go to these grasserfests as total beginners say they have a blast and dont seem afraid or belittled for their noobishness on their instruments.

Yeah, Ben - I know they can be absolute hardheads. But yet, if they sense you are with them, then they're with you. That has been my experience, anyway.

Look - there's no way to clone the bluegrass thing, nor would I want to. I'm using it as an analogy - a prototype. The evolution would be different.

I think the name thing is important. It shouldn't be, but I think it is. We're so bloody image conscious these days. We're also so power and status conscious. But I think this has to come from a completely different direction. Lotsa people out there are left cold by what's happening in the mainstream now. It is about roots. If one can tap into that, I think there's great potential. Maybe I'm babblin' too.

[Jim Sliff]

Maybe the west coast is different. But in my experience, bluegrass never went down for the count around here

It definitely died out here. Sure, Nickel Creek started out as a west coast band, but they were not really bluegrass anyway. The festival scene is dead and somebody lost the headstones. Topanga is the only one I think still exists, and it's never been huge in attendance. There are a few pizza-joint jams - but when you have to drive 120 miles to go to one it's pretty ridiculous.

We haven't had the lodges here (that I'm aware of) since the Moose lodge in he 60's. I don't know of a single one inthe LAX area, north Orange County...or anywhere else out here. O f course, the same goes for country music clubs.

So I don't know about other areas of the country...maybe there are festivals that draw 5,000 people. Not around these parts,though.

From my VERY brief interaction with them i always got the impression that they were really uptight and strict...like if I added ANYTHING to "Red Haired Boy" that wasnt in the tab, it was a blasphemy of sorts.

Yeah, that's the "old guard" that ran the festivals. Honestly, I think most of them are dead. But just like playing a Beatles or Stones song, you could get the hook for playing anything out of the neat little "box" (which is exactly how I've seen opinions presented regarding traditional country music here, honestly). I remember playing one chorus of "Turkey in the Straw" in a minor key (A Grisman-inspired arrangement) and being booed. And in some clubs you could clear a room by taking "Dueling Banjos" and turning it into a blues jam...

Some folks have no sense of humor...or adventure. If you played "Clinch Mountain Backstep" in 1976, your band better play it EXACTLY like Ralph Stanley - and don't even THINK about letting the guitar player take a solo - guitars were for rhythm. Heck, when people at the Ash Grove whined about the way Grisman, White, Greene, Keith et al played when Bill Monroe's bus broke down it was truly pathetic. Times have changed, but unfortunately the whole scene dried up around here.

The funny part I recall was the "matching shirt" requirement. You could not play on stage at Norco without matching shirts. So we bought Hawaiian ones. That was the gig that lasted 3 songs - and got us invited onto Bill Monroe's bus to play for a while.

Two years later almost ever socal bluegrass band was wearing matching Hawaiian shirts...so we HAD to change - God forbid WE become the trend! So it was ugly green leisure suits, just before the band broke up.