Music Stores... swamped with Asian imports

[Bill Hankey]

Doug,

As you know, some folks judge a man by his tools, others by the clothes he wears. I judge a player by the ax that he holds in his hands. The proof of the pudding lies 99% in the workmanship at the neck of the guitar. Most fail miserably in that regard.

[Doug Beaumier]

I judge a player by the ax that he holds in his hands.

I don't know about that, Bill. It's true that a great player deserves a great instrument, but a great player will sound great on a mediocre instrument as well. By the same token, a mediocre player will sound mediocre on any guitar, regardless of how high the quality of that guitar. So I don't think it's fair to judge a player by the guitar he plays. Just my opinion.

Speaking of judging a player by his ax... recently one of my daughters was surprised to hear I use a Fender Squire for teaching guitar lesons. She said "when people come for lessons with a pro they expect to see him playing a nice guitar,"... Ouch! There might be some truth in that, but I haven't heard any complaints yet! BTW, I really like the sound and the feel of this particular Squire.

[Mike Perlowin]

The proof of the pudding lies 99% in the workmanship at the neck of the guitar. Most fail miserably in that regard.

Bill, I suggest that you check out some of these new Asian imports. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at just how good they are. Of course, even within the imports there are the better, more expensive ones, and the cheaper ones that aren't as good. Even the company I'm associated with has a few cheapies that don't measure up.

But the high end imports, which still only cost a fraction of the big brand name guitars, are far better than a lot of people realize.

There is still a great deal of brand name snobbery. But I'll stack my Ravenwest neck-through-body Tele and my Japanese made Vega hard tail strat (also a neck-through-body) against any guitar Fender ever made.

They really are that good.

Here are some pictures

[Bill Hankey]

Mike,

The emphasis in your featured photos clearly show that the common round fret position markers leave much to be desired. The mixing of the woods for a richness effect may have gone over the edge. The blending of colored woods is an art that may have gone out with established craftsmen of the Gibson Guitar Co. era. I hope to "FEEL" the ease of playing one of your choices of a fine guitar in the future. Thanks Mike... have you ever heard of the Micro-Fret Guitar?

[Larry Robbins]

To me , a well made instrument is just that! Does not matter where or who made it! I have seen fine guitars from all over the globe. I have see pieces of crap
from all over the world as well.Years ago I gave up carring what the headstock said and paid more attention to what the quality of the axe said to me.

[Mike Perlowin]

Mike,
. I hope to "FEEL" the ease of playing one of your choices of a fine guitar in the future. Thanks Mike... have you ever heard of the Micro-Fret Guitar?

Bill I've heard of, but never played the micro fret guitar.

Another guitar I've heard about, but never played is the brand "AGILE." They are sold both on a mail order basis and out of a store in New Jersey called Rondo Music.

http://www.rondomusic.com/

Since I Live 3,000 miles away in Los Angeles, I don't know the geography in your part of the country and have no idea how far it is from where you live to where the store is located, but if you can get over there, you should check out these guitars. If they are half as good as everybody says they are, you'll be impressed.

I KNOW you'd be impressed if you tried out my guitars, but flying from Massachusetts to California to try out a guitar seems a little excessive.

[David L. Donald]

Telecaster (R)was made in Madras India at ...
Just plain "Fender(r)".......
"Logo" is photoshopped on. Probably to cover the prison name..

Here they hire a guard just to employ someone local.
Besides it makes the company look more important.

When you got so many people, you don't have to make
the prisoners work, got too many ready to go to even bother.

Fodera makes basses. Vinnie and Joey, and one guy who paints.
A telephone lady, that's it. Cost start at just under $2,000
Same for most of the top makes these days. Small craftsmen operations.

Off shore you see seriously set up operations for mass production,
of proven designs like tele, strat, lespaul,
PRS, Hammer whammy bar copy units, and some archtops, etc.

I note next to the armed guard in the Harmony pic
is a 6 head routing machinen and a cad cam controled neck arch sander.
They clearly know their business. Tooled up right.
No small investment up front.
They also have enough tools to warrent guarding them...

They are closer to cheaper raw materials.
I noted mostly Indian Ash on the good models.
My Fodera bass is Ash and so are Stringmasters.

The bottom line America is becoming a land of craftsmen specialists,
and bulk work is going to the outside world.

At least the indians, in my experience, take pride in their work,
vs a lot of the Chinese work of late which is;
get it built, get it out.
But even there quality IS going up big time in a lot of factories.

We are not an island, we can expect
the outside world to function as well,
not just us.
At least our kids are getting good instruments to learn on.

Bill, often the matching of woods in a neck is
for stability more than color schema.
No doubt they could have picked another color,
but the combination above will be more stable
than same the wood all through, even 3-5 layers cross grained.

[Greg Cutshaw]

I've got the Ravenwest accoustic/electric nylon string guitar and after I changed the strings it played well and the finish is awesome.

My latest acquisition is the Agile 3000. It came TOTALLY ready to play. The intonation is right on the money right out of the box, the strings are like new and the high E was set to .054" and the low E to .058 with about .002 neck bow (finger simutaneously at 1st and 14th frets and measure clearance at 6th fret). The pics below don't begin to show the quality of the wood grain or finish!















Greg

[Jack Francis]

I went into a music store about 10 years ago with my son (a fine player)to buy an American made Strat..after trying every one in the store and not finding any that excited me I called to him that we should leave.

He called me over to see the guitar that he was noodling around on and told me that I should try this one.

It was a Korean Squier Stratocaster Pro-Tone...I played it and was amazed at the quality..I had them put on a Fender American trem and got the whole deal for about $350. I watched and it appears that they only made these for a year or so....Great guitars!

[Doug Beaumier]

My latest acquisition is the Agile 3000. It came TOTALLY ready to play.

It looks pretty good from here, Greg!

Jack, I hear ya! Some of the Squires play well, but it's hit or miss. You have to play a few until you find one that feels right IMHO. A lot of players buy Squires and upgrade the saddles, nut, pickups, etc.

[Stephen Gambrell]

Mike,

The emphasis in your featured photos clearly show that the common round fret position markers leave much to be desired. The mixing of the woods for a richness effect may have gone over the edge. The blending of colored woods is an art that may have gone out with established craftsmen of the Gibson Guitar Co. era. I hope to "FEEL" the ease of playing one of your choices of a fine guitar in the future. Thanks Mike... have you ever heard of the Micro-Fret Guitar?

Bill, that "Strat"-style guitar's blend of woods is over the top, at least for me. Sometimes I wonder if there ARE any established craftsmen at Gibson anymore. And that "Tele"-style that mike has shows a beautiful blend of woods, andshows off the neck-through-body very well. The "cat-track" position markers look a little wierd, but other than that, it's a beautiful guitar, and I'd have one, if it were in my budget!
Since very few guitars are actually built by hand anymore, all that's needed to build a good guitar is a CNC machine. Lock in the material, and push "START." The only thing that REALLY gets me about the Asian countries is the way they try to copy the time-honored American body styles. But after Gibson lost a lawsuit against PRS, all is fair...
By the way, I got one of those Squier HSS Teles. I didn't care gor the neck pickup, so I replaced it--with a GFS! Sounds good, too!

[David L. Donald]

There are limits to the average human ergonometry.
At a certain point guitars MUST come to the
common denominator; how they fit to us.

After that it's trim and style,
but the basic styles are pretty well set
and are standards at this point

Tele
Strat
les Paul
335 and other archetops
Flying Vs
Destroyers

A few other variations
PRS and teard drops etc.
But the basic fundametal 6 styles are those above.
After that it's just variations on a theme.

[Richard Sevigny]

I've owned exactly one Gibson in my life (an ES320TD, not Kalamazoo's best) and for the most part haven't been averse to overseas made instruments. Steels have been the exception. I've got a Teisco EP51 Hollowbody from ~ca 1960 that has one of the sweetest tones I've ever heard.

I'm finding that mid 70's to early 80's MIJ guitars are becoming quite collectible and while they don't command the prices of american made guitars of the same vintage are easily of similar quality and playability.

I agree that the biggest issue with the low end guitars is quality control. You can play ten identical guitars off the rack and find one or two that play well. There's a lot of "fit and finish" issues too. They're just slapped together and not setup properly at the factory.

Mike Perlowin, I played a neck-through tele copy last year similar to the one you posted, but with the "Swing" name brand on it and slightly different p'up configuration. It was a sweet guitar - for the price - that like a fool I passed up.

[Mike Perlowin]

I played a neck-through tele copy last year similar to the one you posted, but with the "Swing" name brand on it....

It was probably made at the same factory in Korea. These factories have their basic models, which they will modify for different companies.

Incidentally the new Tele copies also come with spalted maple or sycamore caps.

Here is the spalted maple



and here is the sycamore



As I said, I only know Agile guitars by reputation, but Greg's comments about his, echo everything else I've heard about them. Our fellow forumite Frank Estes also has one and also raves about it.

BTW, the Vega strat was made in the late 80s and the company has subsequently changed hands. It is now owned by Deering banjos, who, wisely, are only re-issing the classic Vega banjos of the early 20th century. This guitar is no longer being made.

[Doug Beaumier]

Some of these import guitars are beautiful... really nice, but if I were buying a new guitar today I would spend the $1600 and buy a plain and simple Fender American Telecaster, either the Standard, Deluxe, or Vintage series. American telecasters take me back to the 1960s, when I was learning to play! It's pure nostalgia... I admit it! I have three American teles, including a 1968.

[Dave Mudgett]

Oh yeah, Doug. I just go right for the NOS, Closet Classic, or Relic '60 or '63 Custom Shop Teles. I have a Lake Placid Blue '63 Relic that just eats everything else I have for lunch. Lightweight, perfect neck, perfect chicken-pickin' monster. It's getting harder, but you can find them used for the kind of money you're talking about if you look hard.

As I said earlier - I don't think $1600-1800 is insane at all for these. That's less than $300 in 1967 dollars - how many thought $250-$300 was totally insane for a new Tele or Strat back then? Nothing has changed, except that there are some excellent options for 30-50% of that now. Like an American-made large-headstock Highway One Strat I got in a trade worth about $500 or 550. Unbelievable - I mean it just sounds and plays great, and I'm not afraid take it out and let it get beat up a bit.

[Mark van Allen]

Just a couple of comments on this great thread:

I judge a player by the ax(e) that he holds in his hands.

Years ago when I was in the throes of "if I just had an (insert brand name here) steel, I'd play so much better", I was at a jam session where a guy in bib overalls, and nothing else, played a Maverick barefoot with a flatpick and left everyone there in the dust.
A few years later, one of the best guitarists I've ever played with gigged with a crappy, literally unplayable Korean strat through an equally crappy Earth amp, and again smoked everyone within earshot.
It ain't the axe.

One of the most playable current guitar lines to me are the Bill Nash relic Fender copies- all built from aftermarket parts like Allparts, USA guitars, etc. I have two of them, both better than any vintage Fender I've owned or played. One of my studio pals bought a Jeff Beck style Nash Esquire for $1500 that totally smokes the Fender model at $10,500. It's all in the setup- a great luthier can make an average guitar play fantastically- and a factory line can turn out some real clunkers, no matter how accurate the CNC machines are. It takes some delicate fine tuning to make a guitar really shine.

And let's not forget the throwaways of yesterday, Ventures Mosrites, amp-in-the-case Danos, early Fender Champ Steels, Airlines, National Reso-Glass...
commanding ever-higher collector prices and turning up as secret weapons for recording and touring stars.
Perception is everything!

[Doug Beaumier]

One of the most playable current guitar lines to me are the Bill Nash relic Fender copies- all built from aftermarket parts like Allparts, USA guitars, etc.

The Bill Nash relics are amazing. It's good to hear that they play as cool as they look!
Bill Nash is a true craftsman!

[Jack Stoner]

The "Microfret" guitars were made in Frederick Maryland. They had an adjustable nut on the 3rd (G) string for better intonation. They felt the G string was the one that had the most problems with intonation and the adjustable nut was their innovation in that area.

I lived in Laurel MD for a couple of years in the late 60's and then again in 72/73 and since they were a "local" made guitar I saw several of them.

[Tony Prior]

American telecasters take me back to the 1960s, when I was learning to play! It's pure nostalgia... I admit it!

Ahh..Finally.. The Nostalgia Card...

I'm with Doug, theres more to playing a nice Fender than price. I don't want to feel like Johhny Rodriguez when I play and sing Buddy Holly tunes !

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of really fine axes coming over in the containers and I have a few, so I am not dissing the off shore thing at all.

Hanging around New York City, 48th Street, back in the 60's was like a being in a candy store. I will never forget seeing all of those Strats and Tele's in the windows and on the walls and just cruising all of the shops, Manny's, Rudy's, Terminal Music, etc..

When I HOLD a quality USA Fender I am transported back in time. But I want to be transported back to 1960's NYC not 2008 Singapore !

tp



I also have another Made In America toy, 6 Speed, V8, Fixed Roof ,low to the ground, Loud, Fast, Furious and VICIOUS, as Bobbe Seymour describes it. I agree that there are some great IMPORT cars but none of them to ME are part of the "American legend" , just like the Fenders, Gibsons, Guild's and Gretsch's.

[Bill Hatcher]

My latest acquisition is the Agile 3000. It came TOTALLY ready to play. The intonation is right on the money right out of the box, the strings are like new and the high E was set to .054" and the low E to .058 with about .002 neck bow (finger simutaneously at 1st and 14th frets and measure clearance at 6th fret). The pics below don't begin to show the quality of the wood grain or finish!

This guitar would be made with something they call "mahagony"......but what kind of mahagony is it??? If you look under the pickups or in the control cavity you will see a very open pore wide grain wood that is nothing like the South American mahogany used on a Gibson or PRS. Same is true with the neck. They used to make shipping crates out of the mahagony they use to make these Agile guitars. Also the neck on these is usually 1 5/8" unless you were able to order a larger neck size. That is the standard these days on Asian imports. Way too small.

These guitars look pretty good for $369 at the Rondo music site, but in the long run you will find that the materials will usually bite you in the rear and will show up as frets poking out on the ends as the fingerboard shrinks and necks made out this mystery "mahagony" warping.

I would take the worst looking Gibson guitar over these any day because of the 10 times better materials and seasoned wood used and resale value.

The best of the Asian imports right now are the Ibanez Artcore series. The best of the Gibson company imports are the Epiphone Elitist series.

[Steinar Gregertsen]

but in the long run you will find that the materials will usually bite you in the rear and will show up as frets poking out on the ends as the fingerboard shrinks and necks made out this mystery "mahagony" warping.

I have personally dressed the frets on at least 10 Gibsons and Fenders at the local music store, because of neck shrinkage. There's no guarantee your guitar won't suffer from this problem just because it's a US made Gibson/Fender.

Steinar

[Mark Lind-Hanson]

Late last summer I bought a Hofner Icon-B electric bass. These are something of a knockoff from their top of the line McCartney-model bass that goes for about $1000.oo- They're eminently affordable at about $250.oo and have great tone.. however I did notice the tag on it, "Made In China." Made me feel bad, these German luthiers that for (centuries?) made em in Germany, now using slave labor (most likely) and cheaper wood, no doubt, to do what they had done for years maybe a little better quality.
But the kicker was in ordering the case. I suppose people all over the country who bought one of these the same time I did are STILL waiting for their back-ordered cases, because (I gave up waiting in January) the folks who make the cases have not delivered, yet, to the wholesalers... And I don't feel like settling for one of those Rogue cases (they make a similar type bass also, but then it's a Rogue,& not a Hofner...)
heh heh- anyone else on this board who ordered one of those cases last year, sound off, if you actually got your case delivered yet???

[Kevin Hatton]

I just bought an Indonesian Epiphone EJ200 Jumbo for $350.00 that has a $1000.00 sound. Everyone who hears it has the same reaction. I had it professionally set up and it plays great. Go figure. Its not a Gibson, but its not far behind in looks and sound. It will never carry the Gibson resale value. When I was in the luthier's he had a Gibson J200 sitting on his bench with a misaligned neck from the factory. He commented on how well built and sounding mine was. I do not normally buy $350.00 instruments.

[Greg Cutshaw]

Bill,

I am on my second Gibson A-5 mandolin. The first one had a twisted neck (absolute junk) and the second one so far has been pretty good. This is a $2000+ instrument. This Agile looks better than and plays better then my 1972 Gibson SG standard. Name brand buys you very little confidence any more. My dad bouht a 1975 Gibson Johnny Smith guitar that had a bent tailpice from the factory. The workmanship on this Agile blows away my 1982 Fender American Standard Strat which has poor sustain and a very imperfect neck.

It seems every guitar is a little different, so some of it is pot luck on a particular model. I've had good and back experiences with brand name and no name guitars. At under $500, the way this Agile looks and plays, I'll be happy to have the frets dressed in 10 years!

Greg