Did Hippies Hurt or Help American Music?

[Duncan Hodge]

Helped!!! Hippies made some darned good fun music. It's still fun today to put on some Dead, NRPS, or Delaney & Bonnie and jump around like a dirty hippie in a cow pasture. I guess what the hippie musicians did was bring the idea of "let's just plug in, start playing, and see what happens". The results were often rough and unpredictable, but had some transcendent moments that I rarely see in today's overproduced music. I personally approach playing with others by utilizing the hippie code of "let's just plug in, start playing, and see what happens". I drive other people in the band crazy then they hate me and wish I was dead. Maybe that's ultimately what happened to the hippies.
The major influence on my decision to play pedal steel was Jerry Garcia's work on American Beauty. The point has been made that Jerry was not a "very good" pedal steel player, but his playing in the hippie genre spoke volumes to me. Hell, I'm not a "very good" pedal steel player, but sometimes after I play people people come up to me and say "I really liked the way you played on that song". Since I first heard hippie pedal steel all I have ever wanted to do was play something on it that someone else would like. By the way, if you haven't played pedal steel along with "Box of Rain" you should try it...it can be a transcendent moment.
Hey Mike, I sent you an email about Phil's Book.
Duncan

[Stephen Gambrell]

But what nobody noticed is that it's a GREAT silly kiddie movie, utterly charming. And the music is fantastic. The interpretations of the Beatles' song are often superior to the Beatles' own recordings.

First of all, the rock press and record company turned Peter Frampton, one of my all-time favorite guitar players, into David Cassidy. Remember the "topless" Rolling Stone cover?? And at THAT period of their career, the Bee Gees were the Kings of Disco, and I think we can agree about disco. The stupid "story line" for the Sgt. Pepper's movie? A LITTLE GIRL named "Penny Lane?"
One thing will ALWAYS keep the Beatles' Sgt. Pepper recordings, is that 5 men (John, Paul, George, Ringo, and George Martin)showcased their own genius---Not "kiddy-ized" covers. And with 4-track recorders to synch up, orchestrations that could not be played, impossible OVERDUBS, and the growing rift between John and Paul---And they created a rock and roll masterpiece---Maybe THE rock and roll masterpiece!

[Jim Cohen]

Can you spell Ad Hominem?

[Mike Winter]

Have to agree...one of the worst movies of all time, in my opinion. It was on the other day...made it through 20 minutes. Horrible.

[Edward Meisse]

Can you spell Ad Hominem?

No, I can't. So I looked it up. I couldn't find the word per se. But I did find the word hominid. It turns out that a hominid is any member of the family hominidae of which only man survives. A hominine is a menber of the branch of the family which includes modern man(hominis). I deduce that it is spelled Ad hominim. But I still can't say for sure.

[Mike Perlowin]

I stand by my statement about some of the songs on it being better than the originals. As brilliant and creative as the Beatles were, the musicians who played on the soundtrack were session players who on this occasion, played their asses off, probably because the loved the Beatles so much and wanted to do right by them.

The film itself is a CHILDREN's film and cannot be judged by adult standards. Take your 8 year old grandkids to see it and ask them how they liked it.

[David L. Donald]

And that is the reason so many people HATE hippies so avidly.
Because they didn't just ignore what had theretofore been social and musical boundaries but actively pursued the destruction of those boundaries to the greatest extent possible.

I have to say VERY few hippies would match this description.

Some few, who got much more press, certainly did.

And their in your face calls for change
colored the long term perceptions of many towards
ALL those searching for a different path near
or far from their origins.

It wasn't destruction of the bounderies for ALL,
but a pushing back of them for constricted individuals.

This is part and parcel of the American Way.
We are ALL decended from the outcasts and/or adventurers
of europe and the old world, come to the new,
BECAUSE 'we', or great grandpappy, WAS constricted
and couldn't fit in back home, or was TOLD TO GO....

Yet we STILL have latent anger for those WITHIN our society
who decades ago did the same thing,
but just didn't MOVE AWAY to do it.

We made new social constructs and attendant musics.
But when these were challenged in a too fast delta
those liking the 'newly divised and then entrenched/old'
rebeled against this NEW search for new identity.
In one sense those demanding 'no more change',
were rebeling against the ways of
THEIR anceistors who came here earlier.

Ironically, much of that culturally and musicaly driven search paradigm
was put in place by those MOST adverse to it happening.
You/we/generations past, created the environment
that the hippies grew from.

Also the huge leap in post WWII technology fueled
this social change. It was almost inevitable that
the young were going to use this new found freedom
and ability to see and do more, to stretch
the boundries of their existences.

Musically searching for the new,
this is not a bad thing.
The people we most love musically ALL did that.
Otherwise we would NEVER have heard of them,
they would never have made a mark.

Socially it caused a yet, or never, to heal rift.
The Great Divide so to speak.

It is clear from this quoted post that it is STILL THERE.
Hind sight, using memories alone,
without further analysis; rose colored glasses removed.

I think much of the latent anger is from the
'Hey you're not listening to your elders' attitude.

Which is funny sort of, since most of the hippie generation
are now parents with short haired kids,
who don't listen anymore than they did.

And rather than long hair and tie-dyed clothes,
it's multiple piercings superglued hairspikes,
multiple tattos and post Nirvana grunge
or misoginist, anti-social rap.
This too shall pass; except those tattos...

In comparison to what the hippie parents get to worry about today,
I think the hippie's parents got off lightly...

[David Doggett]

Ed, here's the link you want: ad hominem.

In debate, philosophy, and politics, it means ignoring the point of discussion and attacking the character of the person making the point. Steve G. and Mike P. unfortunately have a fairly long history of being entangled in ad hominem diversions. For good reasons, b0b has a specific rule against personal attacks on the Forum. It is best if people stick to the issues being discussed, without resorting to personal insults. In practice that can sometimes be very difficult, and some people just can't seem to separate the two types of argument.

[Stephen Gambrell]

I stand by my statement about some of the songs on it being better than the originals. As brilliant and creative as the Beatles were, the musicians who played on the soundtrack were session players who on this occasion, played their asses off, probably because the loved the Beatles so much and wanted to do right by them.

The film itself is a CHILDREN's film and cannot be judged by adult standards. Take your 8 year old grandkids to see it and ask them how they liked it.

First of all, we're not talking about the movie, we're talking about the soundtrack that you love so much.
And as for session musicians, are you talking about people like the Wrecking Crew, on the west coast, or the Funk Brothers at Motown, Booker T. in Memphis, or maybe those guys in Muscle Shoals? Won't fly, Pearl. Were there NO session players on the movie soundtrack of Sgt. Peppers?

[David L. Donald]

Musically I have not heard this album in decades,
BUT memory does tell me several cuts were pretty darned hot.

I also have the Complete Beatles Collection,
and find most stuff BETTER than my memories of it.

[CrowBear Schmitt]

hey what about Sly & the Family Stone ?
they sure got things movin' when they came out

[Jim Peters]

P Gleespen, check out this Dead song, later years, very well written, simple sounding, yet not simple, understated chromatic guitar solo, lyrics that speak to us older folk. It's got one of those off kilter bass lines that has been mentioned. If you don't think much musically of the Dead, grab a guitar and try to play along with the song. Hope you like it! (Not bad for a bunch of old hippys!)
Here's a youtube link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mBYmaesQ_4

[Glenn Suchan]

The thing to remember about Phil is, that he had had violin lesons as a kid and spent his teenage years playing trumpet as well as writing some "avant garde" orchestra pieces concurrent with that. So he was not a true idiot savant so far as the bass goes- he just applied what he knew about music to it & took it his own direction.

Another thing about Phil Lesh: Prior to his time in the Grateful Dead, while in college, he and fellow classmate Ned Lagen were into Karlheinz Stockhausen:
http://www.stockhausen.org/ and Morton Subotnik
http://www-camil.music.uiuc.edu/Project ... tnick.html

This interest came to fruition with the Phil Lesh/Ned Lagen album "Seastones" released in 1975, on the Grateful Dead label, Round Records. I'm not sure if it's still available, but if you can get your hands on a vinyl or CD copy it's an oportunity to experience Phil's explorations in minimalist/electronic music.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

[b0b]

The Stockhausen influence was very much in evidence at one Grateful Dead concert I attended in '68 or '69. During the 2nd set jam (every GD concert has a freeform 2nd set jam), they balanced three large electronic sound shapes in the space of the hall, like a painting. I've never heard anything like it before or since.

To this day I feel that the Dead's popular songs were just a cover for the high art that they produced on occasion in their 2nd set jams. Those guys not only had the biggest sound system in the world - they had the biggest ears.

[Mark Lind-Hanson]

Gawd I hate bein gone of those sticlers for accuracy in comment board postings, but I just had to come in to clear something up- Ned Lagin wasn't Phil Lesh's classmate- he was (is) some ten years younger or so. They met when he was a student at MIT in the early 70's
-there's a bit about this (I think) in Phil's book- otherwise there are places on the net you might research, where Lagin discusses how he met Garcia and Lesh, through writing them a letter while they were at the time, a band on tour.
Seastones, itself, for me, is not much of anything worth comment- a little bit overhyped for the results, I think. they were much more inventive in their stage performances with him than they were in the studio- Lagin's own musical theories and ideas are actually pretty obtuse in and of themselves... he is a riddle, wrapped in mystery, shrouded in an enigma... a guy who fell in love with his cat...
The guy you really meant, Glenn, was Tom Constanten, who was Phil's roommate during their time at UC Berkeley,in the early 1960's and with whom he attended some lecture classes by Luciano Berio at Mills College in Oakland... and later became the sub-replacement keyboardist in place of PigPen - during Anthem of the Sun, Aoxomoxoa, and Live Dead time.
Tom is a wonderful musician, I was personally close to him for some time in the mid-late 80's taking some classes in composition from him here in SF... And definitely he is someone you can learn more from in an hour of talking, than you can in an hour of staring up at Jerry! He's currently playing with the Jefferson Starship people.

[Glenn Suchan]

Hey Mark, thanks for clearing up the inaccuracies in my post, regarding the Phil/Ned connection. I'd read about it years ago and apparently the facts have gotten garbled in the "crainial fog" that effects me, most of the time.

You're right, "Seastones" isn't something most people would enjoy, or even understand. I also don't think it was recorded to appeal to the throngs of inscence-burning, tie-dyed clad, hippies that flocked to Dead shows, known as "Dead Heads". I think it was done as a sonic experiment. To satisfy their (Lesh/Lagin) own creative curiousity. If I'm not mistaken (once again, there's a distinct possibilty), wasn't Seastones recorded at an MIT sound laboratory?

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

[Mark Lind-Hanson]

Parts of (Seastones) it might have been prerecorded stuff but I think it was mostly done in SF or Marin Co.
While I really dislike the album (I listened to it a total of about 5 times when it came out back in 75) (and I lieked it more then, but as time went by, I saw it as really a fluke)- what I was referring to was the Lagin/Lesh interludes that they put into their concerts back in late 74. It seemed as if they were deliberately trying to provoke their fans one way or another
(if they'll sit through THIS< they'll sit through anything!) however there are quite a few recordings available from the era which include these "breaks" in the real band action and they sometimes are quite different, but in general, it seemed the idea was, "Attack!"

[Glenn Suchan]

Back atcha', Mark
Regarding Seastones; Some of the tape "loops" which were used seemed odd in 1975 and sound even more odd and primitive in 2008. In particular, the modified vocal splicings (from David Crosby and Grace Slick, among others). However, I can definately hear the influence of Morton Subotnik, and to my ears, although I've never read or been told of this influence, Charles Wuorinen. I reference Charles Wuorinen especially because of the spacing of silence with purely electronically created and modified sound. To hear this connection, seek out a recording of Charles Wuorinen's 1968-1969 electronic masterpiece, "Time's Encomium". Charles Wuorinen became the youngest composer (in 1970) to be awarded the Pulitzer Prize for Music for "Time's Encomium". Here's a link with info and a sound link:
http://artofthestates.org/cgi-bin/piece.pl?pid=17

To Tom Olson and Janice Brooks (moderator): Sorry to have caused a slight deviation from the topic subject. Return to the discussion at hand...

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

[b0b]

Sobotnick's "Silver Apples of the Moon" was one of my favorite albums of the era. Is that hippie music?

[Mike Perlowin]

As far as the soundtrack to the Sargent Pepper movie goes, I don't know who the musicians who played in it are, but whoever they are, they are HOT. And anybody who listens to their versions of the songs with an unprejudiced ear will agree with me.

[Mike Winter]

As far as the soundtrack goes, I agree there are some high points, but the general consensus is that the movie...as a whole... sucks...and I have to agree.

[Mat Rhodes]

I had the pleasure of watching that new movie with my Hippie dad, neo-Hippie sister, and her husband. It's funny, but he was way more disappointed in it than I was. I was even prepared to NOT like it after listening to his initial snide comments once we hit the play button. I guess if you lived through that time, you're just not going to see it through the same "Broadway"-like lenses like many kids from my age group.

Perhaps the younger generations are more used to the visual spectacle that music videos introduced. Folks from the radio generation probably had to depend on their imaginations more; so any effort to materialize key moments from that era within the confines of a 90 minute movie is going to have a shroud of suspicion cast over it.

But if you judge the movie on the combination of talents it took to put it all together (visual, musical, choreography, and overall "flow"), then you begin to realize that music alone doesn't necessarily exist in a vacuum. There seem to be a lot of other mediums that it (yes, that damn Hippie music!) influences and inspires.

[Jim Robbins]

Sobotnick's "Silver Apples of the Moon" was one of my favorite albums of the era. Is that hippie music?

Probably. Cf. the phrase "silver apples in the sun" in the "Pride of Cucamonga" (a Lesh composition).

[Stephen Gambrell]

Any of y'all remember the diversity and ticket prices in those days?
I remember seeing Chuck Berry, the Marshall Tucker Band (HOMEBOYS!), and Mother's Finest, for 12 bucks--and that was for tickets for me AND my girlfriend---She's married to a congressman now ...

[David L. Donald]

'Touch Of Gray'

An aging man talking to another aging man
and himself,
even though they still don't see eye to eye,
they both see things clearer now
and look at the next generation
and say well we did what we could.Ah well C'est la vie.

Great swan song tune for Jerry.
---------------------------------------

The shear fact that we are discussing
Morton Subotnic and Stockhausen in the context
of hippie music brings home the point of the
hippie search for new and greater musical influences.

Can one imagine Buddy Holley, Little Richard,
ANY doWop act, or the rockabilly greats
even THINKING about Stockhausen in the 60's?
Me thinks not.

The hippie expansion of POSSIBILITIES within pop music,
was the greatest legacy. IMHO.

Though NOT a hippie Brian Wilson certainly had
a periferal influence in that hippie expansion.

Within that movement The Dead were also leaders.
They were SO wide ranging that they were
typically mis-understood.
As many great artists are while alive.

Stockhausen, Buddy Holley, Lil Richard,
Johnny Cash,Lefty Frizzel, Bill Monroe,
A.P. Carter,Merle Haggard, Clarence White,
Muddy Waters, Howlin Wolf, John Mayhall,
John Coletrain, Miles Davis, Django,
Bach, Bartok, Prokofiev, Tchaicovsky
and many more
ALL can be heard in The Dead's music at times.

And this isn't even including the DRUMMERS influences..