Bakelite - Did Rickenbacker stumble on to success?

Gerald Ross · Post by **Gerald Ross** » 24 Feb 2008 6:33 am

What do you think? Or what do you know?

Did Rickenbacker know what it was doing before they decided to use Bakelite as the material for their guitars? Do you think they knew about Bakelite's tone producing capabilities beforehand or were they just looking for a quick-cheap way to churn out thousands of guitars in a muffin-tin fashion?

To my uneducated mind it seems that forming a guitar in a mold is a much faster and cheaper way than working wood into a desired shape one guitar at a time.

John Dahms · Post by **John Dahms** » 24 Feb 2008 7:25 am

I have no historical data to back this up but this is how I recon things went.
Bakelite (phenolic resin) was regarded as a versatile, modern material and its properties were considered a good choice when used in molded products. The National company had experimented with bakelite for round necks on their Triolian single cone models in '29-'30 and failed because it was not stable under the stress of the strings. I think this failure along with other friction brought about the firing of George Beauchamp. Rickenbacher was at that time involved in the manufacturing of some of the bodies that National used and of course knew Beauchamp who then went on to work for them. I expect the idea of using bakelite came with him. Hawaiian guitars would be less affected by the stress of the strings because of their shorter scale and the greater neck thickness.
I think the tonal qualities of bakelite body guitars was a by-product of manufacturing progress more than an intentional choice. Lucky for us. I have 7 bakelite Rics (including 2 Ace models) and there is something that they have that no other steel can duplicate.

Ron Whitfield · Post by **Ron Whitfield** » 24 Feb 2008 8:51 am

Why did they change the body styling around 1940?

John Dahms · Post by **John Dahms** » 24 Feb 2008 9:09 am

As I see it there were a few changes they worked in. The bakelite formula or process was slightly different to make it less brittle, the neck heel shape was modified to make it stronger and I expect new molds were used because the body edge contour changes slightly. Pictures of these and other changes are stored on Rick Aiello's website-http://www.horseshoemagnets.com/_sgg/m6m5s1_1.htm
I don't think anyone has ever published an explanation for the changes and everyone associated with Rickenbacher at that time is probably gone so we are left to assume and speculate.
Since there are no facts I would like to start a conspiracy theory or maybe suggest it was aliens or bigfoot that changed things or maybe there was a chemist on the grassy knoll...

Clyde Mattocks · Post by **Clyde Mattocks** » 24 Feb 2008 10:22 am

Just my opinion, but I think the tonal quality was just a fortunate accident. Bakelite was the manufacturing rage of the day. If they'd had the hindsight of tuning instability and the number of broken guitars, they'd probably have rejected it. However, I'm glad things went like they did, cause nothing sounds like a Bakelite Ric.

Clyde Mattocks · Post by **Clyde Mattocks** » 24 Feb 2008 10:31 am

Another thing. We talk of the Rickenbacker "growl".
I think this is due to the combination of the C6th tuning, with it's imperfectly tuned E and A notes,
combined with the bakelite body. The tunings low harmonics with it's "waves" are accented by these
particular bodies. I notice if you put straight A or E tuning on it, you don't get so much of the growl. Conversely, a C6th tuning on an old Fender with give you some of the growl (but not as much).
a National New Yorker with a C6th has some growl.

Opinions?

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 24 Feb 2008 1:15 pm

No matter what material a lap steel is made of, the shape is also going to have an effect on the tone. Bakelite instruments tended to have an uninterrupted mass of material from the nut to the bridge, whereas a wooden instrument would probably have some joints somewhere in the chain. When you have two pieces of wood joined, the vibration characteristics of the two pieces are usually different, and where the pieces meet there's an interchange of vibrations. That's why there's a trend in modern electric guitars towards neck-through-bridge. You get a purer tone. In the bakelite instruments you usually have that neck-through-bridge effect.

The other thing that affects tone a lot is the ability of the material to take the strain. The first lap steel I built in 1963 was on the verge of collapse under the weight of just six strings. I knew very little about tensors and internal stresses in those days. But its very weakness gave it a good tone, because the body was actually flexing when the strings were picked. A body made completely of metal has no problem at all taking the weight of the strings, which is why modern pianos have a cast iron frame. That gives it a characteristic tone. Wood is more flexible than metals, but different woods will absorb the vibrations to different extents. Plastics will tend to be more uniform, since every instrument coming out of the factory will have been made with the same ingredients, and the chemicals will have been mixed the same, so they should all sound the same. Consequently, if you like the sound of one Bakelite instrument, all the others of the same model should sound the same.

Plastic is, at the same time, more flexible and more durable than wood, so it will have a characteristic sound. You could probably tailor the sound by changing the mixture during the manufacturing process, or by using different types of plastic.

Bakelite crystalises and the oils evaporate out of the materials over the years, so the instruments may not sound the same now as they did when they left the factory. I would be interested to see how those instruments are in another 50 years. They may have cracked to the extent of being unplayable.

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... 13#1118613

See this thread. It's on a similar subject.

John Drury · Post by **John Drury** » 24 Feb 2008 1:44 pm

The old man was cranking out bakelite toothbrushes before Beauchamp came along. It was the happenin material back then.

Bakelite Ricks look cool as hell but they are heavy and IMO don't sound all that great.

For what you have to dish out these days for a bakelite you can get a nice MSA SuperSlide D-8.

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 24 Feb 2008 1:48 pm

I think the mold or casting principle was a next step from the Frying Pan. I don't think it was an accident, but probably a really well thought out design that worked on many levels, both profit-wise and and appeal-wise.

I would love to see more carbon-graphite instruments, like the Steinberger basses, made, but let's face it, I don't think they could sell enough to justify it...or could they?

Bill Creller · Post by **Bill Creller** » 24 Feb 2008 3:15 pm

I can verify that all bakelite's don't sound the same. I have two seven string models, and it's night and day between them. The Hawaiians know that some are great sounding, and some are just "nice" sounding. There is likely a reason for this difference, but no one has clarified it that I know of. Of course, the pickup windings are all over the place as far as DC resistance is concerned, so response in that area may be different. (??)The original low ohm windings, like 1500 (+ or -)ohms seem to be the good sounding ones, as opposed to later hi-ohm windings.
It's all about taste and opinion too isn't it.

Jim Ward · Post by **Jim Ward** » 29 Feb 2008 3:21 am

I don't know anything about the bakelite process, but I was wondering if anyone has used epoxy resins for casting instrument bodies. I have built a couple of boats using it and have used it as an adhesive of all kinds of repairs. I was looking at some of the old bakelite ricks and thinking of making a mold and trying it out.

Bill Creller · Post by **Bill Creller** » 29 Feb 2008 12:45 pm

Sounds like like a neat project for you Jim. I use a lot of the West System epoxy for just about everything, but haven't used it for anything massive like a guitar body. At about 130 bucks a gallon,(mixed w/catalyst) it wouln't be a cheap experiment.
I've used all sorts of stuff for thickening epoxy besides the stuff W.S. supplys, like silica sand,sawdust,etc. It all ends up hard as a rock no matter what is used it seems.

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 29 Feb 2008 5:58 pm

Not all plastics are created equal ...

Plastics can be "amorphous" (lack a repeating structure) ... or semi-crystalline (sections that are amorphous and crystalline) ... or very crystal like (liquid crystal polymer, basically as crystalline as plastic can get)...

http://www.rtpcompany.com/info/guide/de ... s/3400.htm

A. Rickenbacker (who worked with Leo Baekeland on injection molding ... prior to making instruments) ... understood the nature of the amorphous thermoset bakelite ...

Many speculate that the sonic qualities of bakelite steels ... is due to the presence of fillers like walnut shell powder (cellulose is semi-crystalline) ...

So they had an amorphous thermoset plastic (bakelite) ... impregnated with semi-crystalline cellulose ...

Later the "formula" was reported to change ... with the addition of plasticizers ... to help with the brittleness issue.

Some say they can tell the difference "sonically" ...

As Bill Creller said above ... the way to go ... would be to add a cellulose based filler ... for a cast epoxy steel.

Things like out gassing of the filler, etc ... would have to be considered and dealt with ...

I looked into thermosets and rigid steel molds (for compression/injection molding) ... but that was way to $$$ for me.

Sand casted aluminum ... the ultimate in crystalline steels ...

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 1 Mar 2008 9:11 am

Back in the early 1960's when I wanted a Bakelite Rick so bad I could taste it........and all of my friends were busily discouraging me, saying that they'd all turned to dust by that time period.....
The traveling Rick salesman left his double neck wood body, looked like a FENDER and sounds like a Fender, for me at the local store. I've never cared for the SOUND. It's pretty but gadd! What a disappointment.
I hate to say but in their pursuit of FENDER, I think, they thought they really discovered something when they discovered WOOD! Bad mistake!

Bill Creller · Post by **Bill Creller** » 1 Mar 2008 3:46 pm

I haven't seen any bakelites "turned to dust" yet, but the first "T" logo 7 string I have came from Bobby Ingano. It was a "frankenstein" The bakelite had what looked like pimples all over the body, but not on the neck (?) Anyway, it required a lot of sanding, going from fairly coarse, to very fine, like 2000 grit, to get it smooth enough to buff. It came out fine though. When the stuff is sanded, the dust from it has a brownish color to it(?) Rick likely knows what that is about. It also has a weird smell when sanded.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 1 Mar 2008 6:58 pm

Bill, if you sand Bakelite wear a mask. That black powder is carsonogenic.

Bill Creller · Post by **Bill Creller** » 2 Mar 2008 6:07 am

Yeah Alan, good advice. I figured the dust couldn't be very good for the lungs.
One other thing about bakelites, the surface around the tuner holes will chip out easily if someone wants to ream the holes to make a new set of tuners fit properly. Gentle use with a tapered hand reamer seems to shave the top and bottom surfaces nicely before enlarging the holes slightly. Using a drill can be a disaster. I kind of prefer to replace the knobs rather than the tuner assemblies.

Rob Munn · Post by **Rob Munn** » 10 Nov 2012 7:48 am

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Used-Gibson-Vin ... 43b470ea89

Eugene,

Here is a '50's double 8 on Ebay right now for 1199.00 or best offer. It has P-90's

Rob

Rob Munn · Post by **Rob Munn** » 10 Nov 2012 7:51 am

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-55-Gibson- ... 2577890c65

..and here is a double 8 Consolette for 899. Sweet. JB. Does this one (without the P-90's) look more like your guitar?

Rob

Rob Munn · Post by **Rob Munn** » 10 Nov 2012 9:11 am

JB,

It's bugging me. This is your pickup, with 1 blade for the bass strings and poles for the higher 3. This is from a rare 1939 Gibson EH-185. It's going for over 2K on G-Base. There was another even rarer Gibby. It is the EH-275. Apparently less than 100 made. I still have no idea whether they made a double-neck in this model...
Rob

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 11 Nov 2012 4:30 pm

The Reverend guitar company is now making a big hoopla over their new pickup because it has: poles for the treble strings, and a blade for the wound strings, so the trebles don't ring shrill.... it's amazing to think that there were smart people before we came along, isn't it?

http://www.reverendguitars.com/reverend ... ei_ra.html

Patent pending on the "Railhammer" pickups?
http://www.railhammer.com/joe_naylor_bio.html

Another area guitar companies are puffing up with pride over, is the set neck guitars with no chunky heel block to interfere with access to the higher frets.

Bigsby - 1949.....

J. Wilson · Post by **J. Wilson** » 12 Nov 2012 9:40 am

I subscribe to the Jason Lollar theory here. Although he was talking about pups, I think the gist applies to this occasion perfectly:

"The magic found in some (but not all) classic vintage pickups was created by accident. Don't let anyone tell you different. And over time, some pretty stellar accidents happened."

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 12 Nov 2012 3:44 pm

John D;

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 12 Nov 2012 4:33 pm

Rob,
It's not even remotely similar! Note how narrow my guitar is. The space between the necks is minimal. Huge MOP block inlays, and only two legs. An oddity!

And,,, I NEED A SEVEN STRING BRIDGE TO RESTORE THIS GUITAR! Anyone got one?

Note; The control plate is the original. It had Tone and Volume controls, but no neck selector switch. I added that switch, and also a switch to turn on the Boo Wah lever next to the upper neck's pup. It's a lever made from odd guitar parts, and a 1 meg pot. Works like a champ, but will be removed when I restore the guitar, IF I CAN FIND ANOTHER SEVEN STRING BRIDGE!

John Morton · Post by **John Morton** » 17 Nov 2012 9:17 am

I worked in some places that had old Bakelite sheet stock from the days when it was the material of choice for an electrically insulating material, e.g. circuit boards. Some of these sheets were up to 5" thick! When I got to making resonator cones I turned the spinning forms from this material. It takes a high polish, and is so hard that the forms show no trace of indentations from the spinning operation.

The two largest forms are from brown canvas Bakelite and the black type used for pot handles:

The greenish one on the left is made from a modern product called Paperstone, used for countertops. It has phenolic binders, but is advertised as "green, sustainable" because the reinforcing ingredient is recycled paper. I got a bunch of sink cutouts from a building salvage place, around 1.5" thick. The form on the left is Paperstone - it finishes beautifully and is extremely hard:

This image shows a piece of the raw material:

If anyone is thinking to make Bakelite steels, they should be looking at this stuff.
John

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