Need some advice on Back-Up

[Bob Doran]

I did buy the Jeffran course on back up and it was very helpful.
What I can't seem to find are some dependable rolls I can always count on for fill.
On the banjo there are 8 note rolls (forward rolls, backward rolls, forward-backward rolls, etc.)
They make is so effortless to back up on the banjo.
But I can't seem to find the analogous or similar rolls on the steel.
Any suggestions?
Thanks much!
Bob

[Greg Gefell]

Bob - what do you experience when you do the exact same rolls on your steel that you would on banjo? Certainly some combination of pedal/knee would give a similar sounding chord/inversion that you would get on the banjo.

My guess is that it probably sounds too busy for backup. The lack of sustain on a banjo is one of the reasons you can "get away" with all those notes.

Try the rolls on steel but maybe palm mute right at the bridge like a 6 string guitarist would to lesson sustain.

[Donny Hinson]

IMHO, we don't do much "rolling backup" on PSG. We do long chords (like an organ), comping chords (like a piano or rhythm guitar), grace notes (like a celeste), scales (like a horn), and much pedal work (that's like a straight guitar bending strings). By all means, use some of your banjo-roll stuff if you like, but remember that this is a different instrument, with different techniques you should learn for backup work.

[Bob Doran]

Good idea, Greg. WIll try that.
I think part of the problem is that I don't have the same feel for syncopation on the PSG that I have on the banjo. Are there some examples someone could post.
And frankly, one other problem, is that the way the strings are tuned on the PSG has never to me had any inherent logic.
This has been a real stumbling block for me all along.
They just don't make sense like they do for a guitar, banjo, mandolin or violin, at least, to me.

Maybe I should retune to D9. That would save a lot of broken strings, and my mind can find notes in D, C, and G much easier than E-if that makes any sense.

There are occasional times when the PSG plays rapid back up and I guess I was looking for how they do it>
Bob

[Bob Doran]

Definitely agree with that, Donny.
I am trying to learn it the right way for sure.

But I do hear steelers backing up a song they are not too familiar with by use of rolls.
It seems like they often hit the first, fith and then the higher fifth repeatedly as back up. It sounds great- i think my syncopation is off.

Bob

[Bob Doran]

make that the first, the fifth and then the octave, higher first again.

[Richard Sinkler]

I take it that you are a fairly new player. Banjo rolls will work in some instances (like fast songs), but as others have said, there is a different technique for backing up singers on a steel. You just have to listen to the song and play stuff that compliments the singer. It could be a burning fast fill or a simple slide from one fret to another and anything in between. It's hard to give general advice in this area. Knowing a specific song is more helpful. You'll get a lot more help that way.

The strings are placed in the order they are through evolution of the instrument. I am sure someone will chime in with the accurate history of the tuning. Just realize that you will get used to it with time. I find that if I want to shut a guitar player up, I just show him the open strings going from top to bottom. The out of sequence strings usually sends them running.

As far as tuning down to prevent breaking strings, I don't think that's a good solution, unless you have a guitar that does not have roller nuts. You will end up with a darker tone. Find out the reason for the string breakage. Do you leave them on too long? Have a burr on the roller bridge? Roller nut not turning? Using sabre saw blades taped to your fingers for picks?

and my mind can find notes in D, C, and G much easier than E-if that makes any sense.

This doesn't make sense. You will need to learn the chord positions and scale patterns for a key and then just move them to a different fret to play in different keys. This one of the great features of the steel guitar.

[Bob Doran]

Actually Rich I have very few breaks of the string.
It is just that i really, really hate to restring them.
The anxiety I get as i tighten up a new string to such high impossibly high tensions just drives me nuts as i expect it to snap at any moment.

I do know a brilliant MIdWest player who tunes to D9 and his guitar could not sound better.

Thanks for your response.

Bob

[Richard Sinkler]

Do you know if he uses guages for his strings that fit the D9th. The players I know just use an E9th set and lower the pitches. Doesn't sound right to me.

I know what you mean about re-stringing. I have been hit in the face many times when changing a 3rd string, until I wised up and hold my hand on the strings so it doesn't fly when it breaks. Also, tuning the 3rd to F# and stretch it by pulling on it or using your pedal, then to G and do the same thing, then to G# seems to work great for me. By the time you get to G#, the string is pretty much stretched. This doesn't take long (like it sounds).

[Bo Legg]

I don't think in terms of the steel guitar played like a continuous banjo roll or a Chuck Berry boogy riff and power chord in the background as backup, but rather as a rhythm riff. I think of backup for steel more in terms of fill. Taste is the secret. example: G. Straits "Ocean Front Property" the fiddle fill after the steel turn around...fill starts right after "I don't worship the ground you walk on" or the steel fill in another G.Strait "All my Ex's" starts after "Rosanna's down in Texarkana" or for that matter all the fiddle and steel fills in any G.Strait song. Maybe someone out there knows of a banjo roll with good taste you could use for fill. My number one problem with it is that no matter how much perfume you put on it, "it still smells like a banjo roll"

[Don Brown, Sr.]

Hi Bob, don't learn to play using terms of thinking banjo, or you'll be off on the wrong foot(feet) and it will make it twice as hard to undo, to start getting it right.

They are as in two different animals, that is, unless you want to play a banjo tune on it. Then, it's a very simple procedure. Instead of using your steel bar, take a plastic ball point pen, and use as the bar, and play the hell out of those rolls you're speaking of. Just for giggles, I use to do stuff like that on occasion "Foggy Mountain Breakdown" using a plastic ball point pen. Turn a little bit more trebble on, and the folks can't tell the dif, and ya won't have to do much blocking, as the (Plastic) pen will dull it just enough.

Hope that helps,

Don

[Alan Miller]

Bob,have a look on big E' s website, Im sure there is a sound clip on there of a banjo roll using hammer on's etc.

[Sonny Jenkins]

If you have the JN back up course,,it says it all. Example "Storms Never Last",,,Hold I chord 4 beats (just like Jeff says), Hold I7 4 beats (just like Jeff says), start any IV chord fill for 8 beats (just like Jeff says) Hold V7 for 8 beats, (do an inversion for 4 beats,,then a different inversion for 4 beats to use up the 8 beats on the V7) (just like Jeff says),,puts you back to I chord,,do a 4 beat fill for it,,then a 4 beat fill(or could be a 4 beat run from the V to the I) on V chord to turn it around back to I chord to start the process over, (just like Jeff says). Backing with banjo is a much "busier" action than PSG,,,,PSG is mostly holding chords,,and using various forms of chords for color/interest,,,and then when there is a "hole" in the singing,,,fill it in!!

[Sonny Jenkins]

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