Did Hippies Hurt or Help American Music?

[Chris LeDrew]

14 pages!! Must be some strong stuff you old hippies are smokin'!

[Skip Edwards]

Nah, it's just flashbacks...

[Mat Rhodes]

Chris, that's an interesting topic you may have started that's appropriate to this thread. It's common knowledge that certain wines pair well with certain foods: red to beef and Italian dishes, white to chicken and fish, Chianti and fava beans to human flesh (thanks, Buffalo Bill...).

So that leads one to wonder; what species and hybrids of pakalolo blend well with the recommended bands in the discography?

(keep in mind that this is just for academic purposes, you know...)

[David L. Donald]

LOL
I don't think emprical testing was possible.

Roadapple red always went well with The Dead.

[Tom Olson]

questionable fashion and personal hygiene, flexible mores, other-worldly (read "unproductive") intellectual pursuits, and the overall championing of mediocrity], ... a black mark of a time period ... lack of practice, sloppiness, meandering (non-dynamic) solos, loud volume, distortion, and mostly inarticulate lyrics ...

So what musical characteristics have survived from that era, you ask?

That's easy -- all these things and more are not only alive and well, but thriving today in that beautiful thing called RAP, HIPHOP and the current "gangsta" culture.

[David L. Donald]

current "gangsta" culture.

I supose TECHNICALLY an anthropologist could
call it a culture.

Cultured it is not.

[David Doggett]

An anthropologist would say that rap/gangsta culture derives from African tribalism that predates hippie culture by centuries, or millenniums. The current anti-gangsta culture of peace, love and nonviolence is more related to hippie culture. The hippie mantra of "do your own thing," when accompanied with peace, love, non-violence, egalitarianism, and generosity, had a clearly implied "as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else." Others used the cover of "do your own thing" to excuse their very unhippie-like selfishness, greed, violence and sociopathic profit-mongering of hard drugs. Blaming hippies for that is like blaming moderate conservatives for the excesses of the Ku Klux Klan and neo-Nazis.

[Edward Meisse]

Wow, David!! You've made some impressive posts in this thread. I wish I were so eloquent. You have once again taken the sentiments right out of my heart and put them into better words than I could have.
The one issue I have with the last post is that Tribal and Clan type cultures seem to have been an all but universal form of human culture. Remember the Mafia? And now we have the Russian Mafia and the Mexican Mafia. And gangsta culture has crossed ethnic boundaries. I can't pretend to know anything about how this sort of thing occurs in modern societies. But I think the reference to African Tribal societies was an oversimplification. Whatever this phenomenon is, it is deeply rooted in human psychology. Still, your point that it predates hippie culture by many centuries is accurate. From the looks of some simian groups, it seems likely to me that it predates the human species.

[David L. Donald]

Doggman, right on!
Suscinct and eloquent.

Tribes come together from the predecessor of economic need:
Groups survive better than individuals.

Tribes are the logical out growth of the extended family.
Especialy useful in tougher environments
or nature driven times of less plenty.

We as humans have been programmed over millenia;
to search out compatible group members,
to pull together, while going off in
individual areas of expertise.

In Africa, the middle East and native america,
it was tribes, often migrant, who banded together
for survival. Anyone threatening the banding,
as an individual, was culled. If strong enough
they started another grouping. Often from stealing members
from the original group or others.
Genetically prudent practice.

Later as places were found that supported groups all the time,
group travel lessened, and towns appeared in cultures.
These of course needed managment structures.
The larger the population the more the need mangaging umbrella.
With in there were dissenting thoughs,
these were either tolerated or stamped out,
to 'keep order'.
Those that DID travel for inter group economic reasons
ALSO transported divergent ideas.

Much of this need for 'grouping' and re-grouping was IDEA driven.
Creating a philosophy of life that is
more attractive, yet as useful for survival,
as the originals it displaces.

Now add the teenager. (good luck)
This age typically is a time of expansion of limits
AWAY from the group and individual differentiation,
this is HOW they eventually find their
individual areas of expertise.

But it runs diametrically counter to the leadership of a group,
who most often are trying to hold the group together
during times of plenty, so that it is STILL
together during times of hardship.

Some teenagers rebel more than others.
Some rebel so much the group fractures,
BUT the need to find another group is so strong,
that they search out one
AS DIFFERENT from the one they left as they can,
yet one espousing strong cultural ideas as a unit.

This is the attraction of the gangsta world,
gangs and hanging with a bad crew. Rock n Roll.
The Deadheads were a replacement for families,
where to some extent, (flamesuit) the leader of home group,
hadn't changed with the times
and/or couldn't let the
acorn roll far enough from the tree
to not be killed off by it's own shade.

A new group that It pisses off dad or mom,
it gives you a backstop
it unconcsiously replaces one group with another.
AND sadly reinforces the anti-'original group' idea.

Eventually the acorn learns and mellows.
Most move on, and to some extent back to the original group,
or use it as a model for a new grouping and greater tribal connections.

[dawn patrol: On the road to a music festival can't edit more]

[Edward Meisse]

Actually, if I remember right, the concept of, "Teenager," was invented after WWII. I think it was a bad idea. Was that a marketing strategy or what?

[Mike Winter]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolescence

The Oxford English Dictionary cites the first usage of the term to a Popular Science Monthly issue of April, 1941, "I never knew teen-agers could be so serious."

Also:

http://www.history-of-rock.com/teenagers.htm

[David Doggett]

I didn’t mean to single out African tribalism. It exists, or has existed everywhere. The history of civilization is the movement from tribal warfare to larger and larger nation states that provide a way for large populations to live peacefully together for the common good.

The genius of the United States is the development of a system that balances the freedoms of individuals and small groups within the umbrella of state and national systems that share a common language and a common political culture of democracy, and that is ruled by laws that are considered mostly just and reasonable and democratically established - that keep the peace, but allow a lot of personal freedom. The urban gangs and drug wars are a throwback to tribal warfare. So is the terrorism and religious warfare in the Middle East. And so is the divisive partisan bickering between the far right and the far left in national politics in recent years. The movement toward civilization has not been a steady pace, but is often two steps forward and one step backwards.

It is not always clear how music fits in all this. Sometimes it is a universal language. Other times it is part of the narrow “tribal” prejudices that divide us. It all depends on where you want to place the emphasis, and where you want to direct your musical energy.

Man, who knew the Steel Guitar Forum was gonna get this deep?

[P Gleespen]

Man, who knew the Steel Guitar Forum was gonna get this deep?

It's largely because of a group I like to call the "Three Daves": Doggett, Donald and Mudgett.

Anytime I see a post by one of you guys, I know I'm in for a good read. Definitely three of my favorite posters on the forum.

Thanks for putting in the time fellas.

[Mike Perlowin]

The urban gangs and drug wars are a throwback to tribal warfare. So is the terrorism and religious warfare in the Middle East. And so is the divisive partisan bickering between the far right and the far left in national politics in recent years.

I don't think political differences are in the same league as the other examples. This is more about different ideas than anything else. Here people can be opposite sides of the aisle and still be personal friends.

Most people here know that I'm a politics junkie, and a liberal democrat. Mot exactly a popular position around here. But I have many, many close friends who re conservatives, with whom I share a personal bond, and with whom we simply "agree to disagree" and let it go.

We even kid around about it sometimes. Recently at the phoenix show, I was sitting at the table in the restaurant with one of these people and I was seated to his right, and we joked that I should be seated to his left. Then we talked about music women and the fact that we both had lasic eye surgery and how we felt about it 5 years later, and stuff in general, and enjoyed our meal together.

[Mike Perlowin]

14 pages!!

Not enough. The "ZB Help" thread is still beating us.

[b0b]

Can we get back to the subject of music, please?

[Mike Winter]

OK...

Did anyone happen to see John Mayall in '69 after Mick Taylor quit to join the Stones? He put a band together without a drummer: Jon Mark, Johnny Almond and remaining bassist Steve Thompson. The album that came out, "Turning Point," was recorded at the Fillmore East. The track that got all the airplay was the harmonica-driven "Room to Move," but the rest of the album is pretty cool, too. That's some cool hippie blues, and it was unplugged to a point...and not having a drummer was odd at the time.

Roll another one...

[David L. Donald]

Turning Point was a big influence on me as a harmonica player.
I did that mostly until becoming a bassplayer,
and the bands stopped grooving when I didn't play
and played harp. Most people couldn't swap off on bass,
so my harp playing faded away.

Being in Boston we had the icon Magic Dick from J. Gieuls Band,
but also the great James Montgomery.
We all thought Mayall was cool as all get out.


P.Glee. Thanks for the kind words.
I think the other David's are two of
the most interesting and thought provoquing
on the forum also.

b0b, somehow the question of hippies and their music
can NOT be completely disconnected from the political context.

It REALLY is a reflection
through a glass darkly
of several sides of a flat coin.

In hind sight we see things
in black and white
fogged by shades of gray.
tinted rose with our lost expectations.
Or the rising bile of our faded hopes.

That some STILL don't see it
as it likely was,
speaks volumes on the
camera obscura of group memory.

As remembered from the
group divisions of the times,
reflected in the musics of
variegated social constructs.

Where were YOU when the lights went out?
WHO were you when they came back on?

[David Doggett]

Thanks for the comps, Patrick G. Actually I'm trying to ween myself off of the Forum as much as possible to get some stuff done (like practicing), but the Forum is seriously addicting. I just wish I could figure out a way to get paid for writing stuff (not to mention playing music).

Mike P., it's not the political differences I mind, it's the closed minds who don't really listen to the other side, and the below-the-belt punches with false propaganda, personal attacks, and snide "jokes." Better to have real dialog or talk about something else, rather than fan the flames with divisive venom.

But let's not cross b0b too much with politics that are best discussed elsewhere. However, it's true you can't completely separate politics from any discussion of the '60s and hippies. The big musico-political question from that period, which is always relevant is, "Can we change the world with music? Or is it ultimately just entertainment?"

[Mike Perlowin]

... The big musico-political question from that period, which is always relevant is, "Can we change the world with music? Or is it ultimately just entertainment?"

David, I think it's already been shown that we can. The best example is Country Joe and the Fish's "Fixin To Die Rag" which helped to galvanize people against the Vietnam war. Other examples are the songs of the civil rights movement like "We Shall Overcome." These songs were a major part of the glue that held that movement together in the face of the violence perpetrated against the participants.

[Rick Collins]

Did Hippies Hurt or Help American Music?

Only some of the hippie influence was helpful in the evolving of American music in a better direction.

The great musician learns what not to play as well as what to play. And, he extracted from the hippie movement that narrow part of the hippie's contibution that would work for him. He knows that everything from a group that large will not work.

I must say that I do not like much of the music I hear, no matter what the class or how popular the artist. This is a conservative point of view.

About government:

"Pure" democracy is actually mob rule. I'm thankful that this country is not a democracy, but a democratic republic. We vest our individual power in the discerning representative in government to select that narrow group of possibilities that will work for the greater good and for the individual.

Simply, in music and government there are always many more possibilities that won't work than will.

[Tom Olson]

About government:

"Pure" democracy is actually mob rule. I'm thankful that this country is not a democracy, but a democratic republic. We vest our individual power in the discerning representative in government to select that narrow group of possibilities that will work for the greater good and for the individual.

Simply, in music and government there are always many more possibilities that won't work than will.

Although I know I'm supposed to discuss music and not politics, I think this issue is very interesting. I agree with what you've said, yet, I see another side of the coin.

In one respect the reason for our form of government (i.e., democratic republic) is not so much to avoid mob rule, but to avoid a minority of large states from controlling the way things go. Remember -- we are the United States.

Our form of government has checks and balance so that the states can fairly (to the extent possible) share the power and responsibility of government of the nation. I think this is one reason for the electoral college system used in the presidential elections.

I'd be willing to bet that the people shouting for a popular election for the presidency would scream bloody murder if their own state's rights were diminished. They can't have it both ways.

If we were just a country without states, we might have a different form of government, such as a pure democracy or close to it. After all, at least in my state, most issues are put before the general population for a referendum. Most people tend to vote responsibly and there is not really a feeling of mob rule. I think if we can't trust ourselves to govern ourselves responsibly (i.e., without feeling that things would be mob rule), then we have a big problem. Fortunately, for providencial reasons which I am very thankful, our general population has a conscience and acts responsibly.

[Edward Meisse]

Here in California we've had very bad experiences with the ballot initiative process. It's the reason we're going broke. I'll take representative democracy any time. That assumes of course that the representatives do their job. I guess this thread is close to being closed now.

[Tom Olson]

I agree -- The Founding Fathers really knew what they were doing. Representative democracy is the best form of government we can have as a nation. And, it's only hope for saving the rest of the country from being dragged down by California.

California go broke? I doubt that will ever happen. California is one of the richest states in the country. You simply can't argue with the fact that the entertainment industry is one of the biggest industries in the world, and is centered in California. You can't argue with the fact that Cali has some of the highest real estate prices in the world. There is a lot of money in California.

The problem is when people want to both spend money on state programs and have low taxes. That won't work, unfortunately.

California does have one particular problem that most states still don't quite have yet, but will have soon if we don't close our borders.

[P Gleespen]

Can't we all just agree to agree that Hippies hurt Matt Rhodes (joke) and leave the politics out of it?

Anybody ever hear the Dukes of Stratosphear? It's the band XTC pretending to be a 60s era psychedelic band. It'd be just sort of a funny musical joke if the songs weren't so good.

Also, I know there were plenty of hippy trippy bands with steel in them, but were there ever any more psychedelic acts that featured steel?

There, back to music.