My New Sho~Bud Keyheads

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 18 Feb 2008 3:41 pm

CT, believe me, the washers for the 1st and 10th tuners never did fit the old Shobud headstock. When I restored my 67 Shobud/Baldwin, I used a smaller washer from a more modern tuner with the old Rotomatics. I've seen old washers that were obviously hammered into a shape that would fit. Also notice that on John's keyheads, you don't have to grind down the tuner posts on the 5th and 6th machines.

John Coop · Post by **John Coop** » 18 Feb 2008 4:05 pm

From this point on, the only people that will get my parts will be Ricky Davis and James Morehead. Obviously my stuff does not size up. Coop

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 18 Feb 2008 4:11 pm

Well John, I think your parts are an amazing improvement on the originals, while still keeping within the originals design. Kudos to you!
Best'
JB

John Roche · Post by **John Roche** » 18 Feb 2008 4:32 pm

From this point on, the only people that will get my parts will be Ricky Davis and James Morehead. Obviously my stuff does not size up. Coop and anyone else who licks my ar.. ..

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 18 Feb 2008 5:06 pm

Of course everything made will have its critics....
Chris brings up those certain critiques. Coop of course takes it personal; as I would too, as nobody likes to be criticized for trying to make something better and to hear it's not better for them.
I have no problem with what Chris or anyone says about something I make or do; it may not be for them.
I find what Coop does to be far beyond what originally was done. The original gumby headstock design has those curves; it's what makes it unique Shobud. Is the design that coop made going to interfere with the playability?? NO...
Does the washer size not butting up against that curved section going to let the tuner fall off...No; it snuggs fine...completely every shobud headstock does that...and out of the almost 100 headstocks I've had here; a tuner did not fall off because of that.
To change the design for the popular(far superior tuner by grover to anything I've used) grover romatic to fit; is meaningless to the design...then you don't have the original design/look.
The roller system is superior to what originally was made; as more than half the shobuds I've had...buzzed and histerics out the yahoo...>
Coops design fits the original; but betters it by construction and stability. Say goodbye to string buzz and most the histerics and overtone issues.
String buzz from non-guaged rollers is not the issue. String buzz from fretting is from wrong string guages; not the rollers being non-guaged.
Again; Coop is making parts that compliment the original design; but making the construction better; without compromising the Shobud look.
These are my opinions and I believe John R. Coop Sr. is beyond his time in craftsmanship and Tool making.
I don't have to kiss anyones....a##...I don't have to pump anyones ego...if Coop never sends me another part...that's fine....I still see him as one of the best engineer/tool/craftsman; I've ever seen.
Ricky

Colby Tipton · Post by **Colby Tipton** » 18 Feb 2008 5:12 pm

Ricky,
Those are my thoughts exactly.
I think Coop is doing miracles with the Sho-Bud parts he makes.

Colby

Jeff Hyman · Post by **Jeff Hyman** » 18 Feb 2008 5:18 pm

John,

I logged to see if I had an answer for my original posting. I'd like to take the head stock, and put it on a LDG that does NOT have the gumby style (which I love). If you can take a peek at my original posting, and reply would be greatly appreciated. I have no beef with what you (re)produced. Just count me in as a fan. Those playing the older SHO~BUD should appreciate the time and craftsmanship you put into this. I sure do.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 18 Feb 2008 6:08 pm

John Roche wrote:

From this point on, the only people that will get my parts will be Ricky Davis and James Morehead. Obviously my stuff does not size up. Coop and anyone else who licks my ar.. ..

Obviously, if we happen to be fans of John Coop's parts and craftsmanship, it makes you compelled to slant us as if we are your enemy? I don't believe I've had the pleasure to have ever met you, Mr. Roche. All I can say is I'm sorry for you, my friend. Your loss.

Edited to point out, it's pretty sad to quote somebody and ADD derogatory remarks, John Roche. No class.

mike nolan · Post by **mike nolan** » 18 Feb 2008 6:14 pm

John,

I am going to need one of those headstocks to go with the rest of my "Cooped" Sho~Bud..... so I hope that I can make the A list.......

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 18 Feb 2008 6:36 pm

There is no list Mike, you either like Johns craftsmanship or you don't. It goes from there.

Donald Dunlavey · Post by **Donald Dunlavey** » 18 Feb 2008 6:47 pm

I could be wrong too, but I think the imperfection is because of the original Teardrop design. Where the curve starts at key 5. 1 and 10 are curved to start and then 2 and 9 flatten out. If you look at Bud Teardrop heads that's How I remember them being on 4 of the Buds I've had. But I'll go with a very impressive piece of work as everything of Mr Coops usually is.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 18 Feb 2008 7:44 pm

Here is a few pics of my daughter's 1968 singleneck with original Grover 14:1's, and John's new keyhead with new style Grover 18:1 Rotomatics, and a '73 LDG with the new style Grover 18:1 Rotomatics.
Notice the old style grover tuners are round, where as the new style Grovers have a flat-squared casing. In order to keep the original look of the shobud keyhead, and use the new grovers, you will have a slight gap on #5.
Big Deal. I love the new 18:1 Rotomatics and how they function.

Now notice the '68 keyhead, and how the shafts of #5 and #6 had to be ground down, Just to get those two tuners to butt up flush to the keyhead. You either ground the tuners down, or use washers, as in the 3rd pic of the LDG.

Now look at the pic of John's corrected keyhead. Now notice the "gap" that Chris Ivey misses so badly, between #5 and #6. This is so you DO NOT have to take a grinder to the ends of #5 and #6 just to get them to fit properly. I consider what John corrected, as something that should have been corrected before it ever left Shobud's factory in the first place. YMMV

Chris I., You could STILL use an old set of grovers with John's new keyhead, and you won't see the little gap on #5 that wouldn't have been visible if grover had stayed with the original design. Of course, you don't get to grind the ends off either, if you use John's keyhead.

Perhaps you could share with us YOUR particular design to correct these problems?

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 18 Feb 2008 7:53 pm

Oustanding work Mr. Coop. Just beautiful. Bravo.

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 18 Feb 2008 8:03 pm

Beautiful work as usual, John. I look forward to seeing you next month in Dallas. Please say that I can tag along with you and James on a beer run again this year....this dry county business just won't do!

Jimmie Martin · Post by **Jimmie Martin** » 19 Feb 2008 2:32 am

I've had the pleasure of purchasing parts from John. Hes a first class guy to buy from and talk to. If i ever get the chance to buy another project sho-bud you can bet i'll buy my parts from John. These new keyheads are stunning. I do have a question though. Do they come complete as the picture shows? If you cold John and would i would appreciate it if you would pm me with a price for the complete unit

. Thanks John and God bless you and yours. Jimmie

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 19 Feb 2008 5:48 am

Perhaps John Coop has been a little over sensitive here. No matter what he produces there will always be an element of SB owners who sit in the 'keep everything original' camp. (Nothing wrong with that train of thought). There is also an element of SB owners who want to replace some of the inconsistent parts for those machined to a much higher standard.

I personally love the ShoBud guitar for a number of reasons, but above all for the tone and heritage. However, I cannot condone some of the questionable quality of some of the SB guitars I have seen where casting pin holes are evident, along with the use of inferior materials. It can be a lottery when buying a used ShoBud, and it does need consideration when buying these guitars of a certain vintage - i.e. the later models.

Mr Coop is providing a source for those who want to modernise their guitar, and with the sheer numbers of SB owners he could easily have a steady flow of work for a long time.

Criticism does hurt, especially when it is not constructive, but John was maybe being a little naive if he thought that all of the responses to his picture of the new keyhead would be positive. He needs to look at the positive posts, and bear in mind the testaments of the large number of satisfied customers of his who post here.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 19 Feb 2008 9:27 am

Ken, Do not underestimate Coop. This ain't his first rodeo---I'll assure you he is not naive. It's just that when you pump the amount of hours into research and developement that he does, it's disheartening to get "trivial" throwed in your face. Sooner or later, you just plain get sick of it.

Some of the detail most people overlook when looking at the old original keyheads is very subtle. Notice the pictures of the '73 LDG keyhead. Notice that the side of the keyhead toward the front of the guitar is actually 1/32" thinner than the opposite side of the keyhead. You have to study it to see it, and if your attention was not drawn to this "minor" detail, it would go un-noticed by most----except Coop. Also notice that the inside right and left cutout is inconsistant all the way up to the rollers. They are crooked and do not match right side to left side. Our '68 single neck is exactly the same way, which shows that Shobud never changed their casting---"good 'nuf". These are two more problems that Coop has corrected. Compare Coop's keyhead pic.

The time and study to just "see" these inconsistanties is one thing. The time and study of how to correct it is a whole new game plan. Executing that game plan is a whole new dimension in itself, yet. Many people do not understand this. Those that do are not so critical, and thrilled to see someone is making a better "mousetrap".

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 19 Feb 2008 10:05 am

No one has commented about this, so I will point out another cool detail about Coop's keyhead.

Sometimes the roller area gets damaged accidentally---something might get dropped on it, ect. We have all seen this one time or another on a well used guitar.

For instance, I had a "Professional" that had an edge broken off of the rollers--the outside "finger" that holds the axle. The roller would hang up after that, and to get it freed up is a royal pain. Plus now it obviously looked damaged, and ugly.

Did you know that Coop's keyhead is actually a two piece head? Look at the picture above. You will see the roller assembly is actually detachable. If the roller assembly is ever damaged, it can be easily replaced.
Just another problem Coop has solved. Way to go, Coop!!

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 19 Feb 2008 11:43 am

James, your attention to explaining the many details of what Coop does; is admirable.
But it's like trying to explain algebra to a 3rd grader.
I'm a 3rd grader also when it comes to the massive calculations to what Coop does; to better a product.
Some will never understand it; but will speak out in ignorance; I'm certainly at fault for that too sometimes.
I've known many builders of steel guitars and they all are freakin' genious; but Ed Fulawka and John Coop to me; go over and beyond the attention to detail in superior craftsmanship; than I've ever seen.
Ricky

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 19 Feb 2008 12:01 pm

Many people just don't understand that every Shobud is an entity unto itself. They're all different! Hard to tell by just lookin' at one, even playin' one, but take one apart sometime, and cr@p starts to flash before your eyes. Look at this beautiful Permanent keyhead. Looks great, but it ain't remotely flat on the bottom! Rock 'n rolls like early Elvis! I'm gonna have to have it resurfaced before I put the guitar back together.

These are the kinds of things, both little and big, that John finds and corrects! I have no idea how many things John corrected in just these keyheads. But it's a lot more things than are obvious to the eye. And that's just keyheads! Thinkin' about all the other parts that John now makes correctly? Mind boggling!

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 19 Feb 2008 12:05 pm

Just one conversation with Mr. Coop and you will see thst you are talking to a man with advanced intellect and attention to detail. He is doing the steel community a VERY valuable service by redesigning these parts for maximum performance.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 19 Feb 2008 12:38 pm

hi friends. i wasn't trying to make anyone mad or degrade their fine work. as you will see on my previous posts, the first statement was always that the part was beautiful, as it is! what followed was just an observation.
as to the washer fit, i know on old racing bicycles i've had i have found little washer shaped aluminum pieces that have one curved side. i think it would be easy enough to make some for i and 10 that would fit the inner curve of the keyhead beautifully, leaving a nice secure flat side for the nut to snuggle up against.
as for tuner 5 not fitting flushly, i don't know. obviously the new grover style is too long for the curved keyhead shape. if visual perfection isn't what you're after, then fine. maybe a little teflon backing plate between the tuner and the head would fill that gap.
when i make parts that i need, i am limited to a vise, a hacksaw and a file........so obviously i am envious of the masterful machine work.
i too love the sho-bud design and played a 69 or 70 'the professional' for over 10 years...i don't remember it looking quite as funky as these old pictures posted here, but i suppose it may have.
james, i never said anything about the spacing concerning the shafts of 5 and 6.

Jerry Horner · Post by **Jerry Horner** » 19 Feb 2008 1:58 pm

James,
Does Coop make a 12 string keyhead yet? Because if he does, I have got to have one. Also I have a box of parts I need to send to Dallas with you that I owe Coop. They came of my 12.

Jerry

Alex McCollough · Post by **Alex McCollough** » 19 Feb 2008 2:58 pm

Does anyone know the best way to contact John Coop about his parts?

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 19 Feb 2008 3:01 pm

There are buttons for "pm" and "email" in John's first post on this thread.

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