Some thoughts on vintage amps

Keith DeLong · From: Dartmouth NS Canada

I've owned a '64 Fender Super Reverb for many years, finally selling it due to the weight. Some of these amps go for around $2500-$3000 on Ebay, at least that's what they're asking for them. I have mine at a local consignment music store listed at #2500. I'm being told that because it has new speakers that the vintage label no longer applies; when I bought it second hand it had 2 original Fender speakers, a GBX and a Marsland. Now it has 4 Emininence speakers and sounds a lot better than before, but is not as valuable. Brings up the question, how pure is pure--I also have casters on it and a 3-prong plug, both of which are a definite improvement. I'd be interested in hearing some opinions on this.

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

You don't have a $2500 amp. If you want one, get 4 1963 or 64 Jensens, but the amp could have come with CTS or even Oxfords. But first, take an honest look at the amp to determine what else has been changed.

I imagine the amp was priced lower because of the speakers when you bought it. That lower price probably does not look much like a savings now that the price of an original amp has skyrocketed.

Get rid of the casters -- They are not an improvement. They are cabinet busters.

If I wanted to pay for a Super Reverb, I would rather pay top dollar for a great original one than a thousand less for one with key parts that have been changed.

Keith Cordell · From: San Diego

If it's just the speakers, it would be worthwhile to you to replace yours with Jensens. You might want to have someone who knows the amps to look at it and see if there are any other mods- it might not be worth half that price.

Keith DeLong · From: Dartmouth NS Canada

The speakers are only a few years old, rather than lay out the money for Jensens, I'll reduce the price or keep it. It ain't all that bad, you know. It's the type of thing that makes it hard to sell on ebay unless someone can actually hear the amp, that's why I'll attempt to sell it locally if I can. A lot of blues guys have heard it and liked it but probably can't scrape up that kind of cash.

Keith DeLong · From: Dartmouth NS Canada

By the way I DO appreciate your honest opinions on this, and I'll weigh everything that's said before I make a final decision. Keep 'em coming!

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Replaced speakers? -20%
Added casters? -10% (holes drilled, can't undo that)
Minor rips/scuffs in the tolex? -10%
Stained or torn grill cloth? -10%

Many fools shopping on ebay will pay more than an item is worth.

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

Donny, I disagree about your 20% deduction on speakers. To me, and I am sure many others, replacement speakers that are not period correct would be a deal breaker on an amp that is in the "investment category" such as this one.
I don't know anyone who would want a 1964 220SEb convertible with a Chevy engine in it.

There are plenty of "player" amps out there that sound just as good or better as an alternative.

If anything, if you don't want the outlay for replacement speakers, determine that the amp has the correct transformers and knobs and other key bits, and if possible line up a set of speakers from Cold Springs or somewhere less expensive. Discount the amp to reflect the cost of the buyer getting the speakers you have reserved -- plus some more for the hassle.

Keith DeLong · From: Dartmouth NS Canada

All transformers are original, one of the filter caps in the power supply is new. I used the amp for 36 years so don't even ask if the tubes are original.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Well, FWIW - another opinion on the value relative to the usual "excellent original condition" book value. I haven't got my book with me, but an excellent original Super Reverb is worth a lotta money right now. Super, Vibrolux Reverb, and Vibroverbs are probably the most coveted of the blackface Fender amps, IMO.

To me, speakers devalue it by the difference in cost to install the correct period speakers after selling the ones in it. That is a lot, in this case, because a set of 4 old Jensens is very expensive. I think it may even be more than 20%. The good side is that one can find the correct speakers - they're just expensive. Not a deal breaker if the price is right, to me. If I used it as a player, I'd just use whatever speakers I like.

As Donny says, holes for casters, rips/scuffs in tolex or grill cloth, or anything like that devalue the amp - but how much depends on a lot of factors. To me, as long as everything is original, a total devalue down to very good or very good plus might result in a 20-30% deduction over excellent. But all this depends on the degree of scuffs, holes, and so on. That is qualitative, and subject to interpretation.

IMO, there is some room for maintenance of the electronics. I know there are some people who are completely nutty about absolute originality to the point that they buy an old amp like this purely for collectibility, and want every worn-out and useless electronic part in there. This is not that type of example, IMO. I think replaced electrolytics, and other minor parts with appropriate replacements, all well done, do not devalue a VG+ to Excellent amp at all. In fact, not doing those things probably devalues it some for a player amp. I also don't think having a 3-prong power cord is a problem - it's no big deal to dig up a period-correct power cord for someone who wants to open themselves up to serious shock hazards. Anybody else should want the 3-prong cord.

Let's say it's $600-800 over the price of what's in there to find a set of truly correct old 64 Jensens. Cold Springs Electrical works is a very expensive source, but look at their prices - http://www.coldspringselectricalworks.com/ IMO, it's gonna be expensive to turn this into a period-correct collectible amp.

Consider further a 20% deduction from, let's say, $2700 for an excellent original super to VG or VG+. That's about $2200 minus, let's say, $600-800 for a set of speakers, or $1400-1600. Let's analyze this.

Would I rather have a VG or VG+ 64 Super Reverb over the typical new boutique amp that's around that same price range? You bet I would. Would I want to pay $2500 for it? No - I think I can find a better example for that kind of money.

So - maybe the market would bear more than $1400-1600. I agree that I'd much rather have a solid player-grade 64 Super Reverb than most anything I've seen out there in the ca. $1500 price range boutique amp. But the market is obviously the final determinant.

I just noticed your electronic description. Good that transformers are original, I assume tubes are OK, but a buyer like me would expect to put at least a couple hundred into going over this, fresh filter caps all the way around, etc. For me, that would limit what "I "would pay over that $1400-1600 figure - if I was looking right now. But you might find someone. BTW - I'm not looking right now.

All this is based on my premises on vintage amps and the description you gave. Of course, all my opinions.

Papa Joe Pollick · From: Swanton, Ohio

Keith,I may have just what you need.4 speakers from a BF Super Reverb.Don't know the manufacture.The code on the frame is "D881 66",and the label says Fender Special Design.I took them out of an old amp about 20 yrs ago and they are just sitting here getting older.I have no need for them so if you can use them, we can make a resonable deal.I also still have the baffle and harness.I can do some pics if you want.Let me know..PJ

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

Dave, I think you are being unrealistic with the $600 to $800 estimate on correct replacement speakers. Remember, he needs a set of four with the same codes. You will need to pay a premium for a set. Vintage value doesn't come from "Jensen ceramic tone" of four scavenged and thrown together 1963 and 1964 speakers. Vintage value will come from four speakers that pass the straight face test and look like they have all lived in the same cabinet all their lives.

If you really want a Super Reverb as a player, there are plenty of Silver Faces out there and a trained chimp with one hand in his pocket can make them BF in tone if he thinks that's better.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Just for reference, speakers can be replaced with the exact type and vintage, and no one (until now, that is Wink

) would be able to tell. Grill cloth can sometimes be replaced with no one being able to tell. Replacing the Tolex to make it look exactly right is nearly impossible.

People who collect these amps, the real afficianadoes, even know when a screw is wrong. If it's something like a speaker or transformer, you can maintain the authenticity to a point where it might fool anyone if a replacement was done. But then again, that's exactly what they're looking for when they pay top dollar. Chris is right, "incredibly picky" is the label given to detail-oriented collectors. A good example might bring $2000-$2500 in excellent condition. Average condition (with defects I've stated) might bring only half of that. A mint example, though, if found, might bring almost twice that. There are people out there with big money for the right (one-of-a-kind) item.

Originality and condition are everything, but lots of players (not collectors) are willing to settle for less.

Ebay...well, that's unique. I recently saw a used (10-year old) item sell for $120, and the item can still be purchased new for $60!!! (The new and the old items are absolutely identical, no one could tell them apart.)

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

IMO it's a complete waste at this point to try to restore the amp to "vintage collectable" status...because you can't. The casters are what really blow it - holes drilled in anything devalue the amp significantly to serious collectors. Speakers are certainly another dealbuster, can be replaced...but whether or not $6-800 for speakers would mean a $6-800 increase in the amp price is debatable.

An amp like this is, IMO, best turned into a top-notch vintage "player". Put whatever speakers sound best in it, good tubes, make sure it's serviced properly and biased for how YOU want it to sound and play the thing. I have a similar one and wish I'd never sold it.

BTW - a 3-prong cord and a cap job DO NOT generally devalue a collectable amp, unless it's a 100% original, mint condition "store it under glass" amp. If it's going to be played, those are required items, just like putting new tires on a classic car.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I agree with Jim that it's best to turn an amp like this into a vintage player. I wasn't suggesting the speakers should be replaced, but was using the $600-800 range as a reasonable deduction for non-original speakers. That amount was computed as the difference after selling the speakers in it. I do see Super Reverb speaker sets for in the $750-1000 range from time to time. Not at CSEW, but that doesn't mean they're not out there.

Many players - like me - prefer an amp like this that is not absolutely pristine, with replaced speakers, for a grand less than the original excellent condition price. I want to play an amp, and have absolutely no interest in a clean, original example that I'll just tear up at gigs.

I like SF Super Reverbs, but I prefer BF versions. I've had a bunch of both including "blackfaced" SF. I'm not sure what it is - maybe it's the transformers - but for blues, I don't think one can beat a BF Super.

As I said above - this is just one man's opinion. YMMV and all that.

J Fletcher · From: London,Ont,Canada

My 2 cents. You can't really complain about the fact that the amp won't bring top dollar when you've had it and used it for 36 years, and likely paid somewhere less than $500 when you bought it. You gotta be coming out ahead on that deal. It's paid you back many times over already...Jerry

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Put it on Ebay and write a glowing report of it and some one will likely pay what you want for it. There are enough people who linger there who don't suffer from vintage snobbery and will just want the amp.

If you hang on to it long enough, you will see the price go up even more on it even though it has casters on it. Amps and guitars that used to be not cool with the vintage geeks are being sold for more than they used to due to the fact that the cool stuff has become unobtainable and out of reach price wise. They have to sell something, so things they used to poo poo they now sell.

I remember when a vintage dealer would not be caught with a three bolt strat in his inventory. Now look what they charge for them. It is part hype, part snake oil show all this vintage instrument code.

64 would be an early SR. That would figure into the mix.

Jay Ganz · From: Out Behind The Barn

Guess I paid too much for my old '64 Super Reverb. All stock with original Jensens for $650.
That was about a dozen years ago. Rolling Eyes

Alan Kirk · From: Scotia, CA, USA

Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

Derek Trucks (a man who knows his Super Reverbs) likes those Pyle driver speakers in his mid-60s Supers. I played through his 'spare' on a gig and it was indeed sweet.

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

FWIW, if you believe Gerald Weber of Kendrick (I did say if), actual period original speakers cannot perform as they're supposed to due to aging, and reconing, in addition to making them not original, won't truly restore them to spec because the precise same materials are no longer available.

I'm not endorsing these opinions, just passing them along.

If he's correct, speakers should be regarded in a similar way as tubes and caps, as parts that require occasional changing. Of course, "collectors" don't care if the amp works right or not--people are funny.

Rick Johnson · From: Wheelwright, Ky USA

Keith
The '64 Super Reverb is a great amp.
If I were looking for one I wouldn't
hesitate paying 1750.00 for that amp.

Just a word of caution, back here where
I live some stores let prospective buyers
borrow a consignment amp to take out and try. When it
comes back, the tubes and speakers and
reverb tanks and cables are sometimes different
when its returned back to the store.
Its a shame.

Rick

www.rickjohnsoncabs.com

Keith DeLong · From: Dartmouth NS Canada

Regards to what Brint said:
That's why I replaced the speakers, other than they were a mismatched set (see above), I felt the paper on them was getting sloppy so I checked with the Fender rep that was here at the time and he recommended the Fender/Emininence 25 speakers. It's been probably 7 years or more ago and there might not have been the selection of vintage replacements that are available now, or he may have thought I wanted a cheaper speaker for a playing amp. I've been happy with them-it was a definite improvement.
This has turned out to be a really interesting topic, I'm enjoying your feedback inmmensely Very Happy

Keith DeLong · From: Dartmouth NS Canada

That's 25 watt speakers I meant to say.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Eminence makes some decent speakers - I've never had any problems with them, never had a bad sounding one (although I never was bowled over by them either) and they seem to do well in Supers. The speaker I would NOT use under any circumstances is the reissue (a horribly misleading terms) Jensen C10Q (Or any other new Jensen guitar speaker, for that matter)- it's not made by the original Jensen company (it's now an Italian firm), it's not made to the same specs, is heavily doped and takes a *long* time to break in (if it ever does at all) and is generally a harsh, nasty sounding speaker. All "Jensen" owns is the logo and name designations - none of the speakers are similar (except in size) to the vintage originals.

I took a pair and spent months using acetone to slowly "de-dope" them and ran them for hours on end with a stereo to break them in. It took about 6 months of messing with them to get them sounding fairly good. For most people they are not worth the trouble.

They play up the Jensen name in advertising, yet the speakers are not even close. It's a shame.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Keith DeLong · From: Dartmouth NS Canada

I appreciate all your thoughts and opinions, guys--I think I'll leave it as is, the folks at the music store where I have it on consignment seem to think it'll go, might take some time, but I'm in no big hurry. it would be a major headache trying to restore it to original condition and I don't think it would be worth it in the end. I'll let you know how things turn out and thanks again for all the feedback. Now I gotta borrow a Nashville 112 for the steel and try that out so I can say bye bye to the Nashville 400--I like it fine but there's the weight issue again Confused

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