AMPS - Your opinion please!!

[Jude Reinhardt]

Mine's a Transtube Envoy II and has a Blue Marvel speaker. I bought it used on ebay and don't know how old it is.

Jude

[Casey Lowmiller]

Thanks Jude. My Envoy 110s are much older ones. They are some neat little amps.

Casey

[Robert Harper]

I have used a Peavy 65 for 25 yts Gtray AMP

[Jim Sliff]

Sir, your post was 192 words long.
And, other than please you -- I can find no helpful purpose in the entire 192 words of it what-so-ever.

Well, perhaps with more experience you'll become more observant.

My comments pointed out that the amps mentioned essentially ARE practice amps - and that a newbie's statement of:

I know that Peaveys, Reno 400, Session 400, and the Nashville 112's are high-quality 'performance-grade' AMP's and are being used by performer's.

...shows just how uneducated most steel players ARE when it comes to instrument amplifications...and what a great job Peavey has done to focus on the the steel market with inexpensive amps. I think the appropriate phrase is "indoctrination".

We often make observations about the industry as a whole around here, Harley - and my comments were certainly tuned to the topic at hand. To extend it a bit - dropping to a price point below the noted amps gets you into the cheapo beginner amp range. You made no statement of your musical experience (only that you are new to pedal steel) so we don't know if you're an experienced guitar player looking for a "beer coaster" amp for the den to noodle on with steel, or if you're a complete musical newbie with little knowledge of what goes into good amplifier tone.

I didn't write a drawn-out dissertation as this thread has been repeated dozens of times. It might behoove you, as a new guy, to avail yourself of the "search" function, thereby finding answers without taking up b0b's bandwidth with another "what's a good cheap practice amp" (a somewhat mutually exclusive statement...at least to some of us) thread.

Your diversion to the other thread showed you ARE t new, as that thread pointed out a common problem...and was perfectly appropriate, as were the responses. Amazingly, not everyone agrees on every subject. Your comparison of threads was also totally irrelevant to your question, or my (or anyone else's) answer, so I know I, at least, do not comprehend the motive...unless you just like criticizing people.

David - this comment, which we've discussed before:

Up through the '60s, in order to get the clean headroom they needed to sustain clean chords with their volume pedals, steelers had to buy the most expensive and powerful amps made. They would have to buy a Twin to keep up with guitar players with a Deluxe.

...is incorrect IMO (and I've said that before). The only problem steelers had was the lack of techs that knew how to set up amps for headroom. Give me a Deluxe Reverb and 45 minutes, and I'll have it keep up with a guitar player's Deluxe Reverb.

It wasn't a power issue - it was a marketing one. Peavey focused on steel and got the players' attention, while other amp companies saw it as a "niche" market and focused their attention to where the money is - 6 strings. No knock on Peavey for dong a nice service to the steel community....but IMO there's a huge difference in tonal warmth between a Nashville 112 and a Pro Reverb, and they can both be run at he same volume.

It all depends on what you're trying to achieve tonally. Peavey certainly has done a great job of marketing "affordable" amps for steel guitar players. Are they tonally superior? That's a subjective question, and my answer is, with a few exception (the Session 500 for example) a resounding "no". However, my subjectivity leans towards a warmer, more guitar-like tone rather than the icepick-treble, reverb-washed "whine" some prefer. That's why I prefer lower impedance pickups, guitars with tone/volume controls, and tube amps. However, I can take my Fender 1000 or GFI Ultra and 50-watt Fender Vibroverb, dial it in for squeaky-clean tone, and break windows while still retaining some warmth, smoothness and full frequency response.

But taking price point into account, the amps listed in the original post are equivalent to "intermediate" or "garage band" amps in the big scheme of musical instrument amplification.

And, as one who plays steel and 6-string, I find humor in the complaints I read by steelers about steel amps that cost 7 or 8 hundred bucks when they're playing a $2500 guitar...and a Strat player doesn't blink at $1500 for an amp for his $7-800 guitar.

The steel world has been conditioned to "Peavey" (Harley's "I know" statement confirmed that). I don't think too many veteran players will deny it.

And as far as practice amps go - you can't take TOO much out of the production cost before your tone goes down the toilet.

Harley, I hope that explains a little bit of what you read - I think you may have misinterpreted some things, but everyone does. Lord know I did enough of it as a newbie! And I'll tell you from personal experience - jumping people for their posts before you've really gotten your feet wet might not be the best approach. Most of the guys here really ARE helpful, and if you have to read between the lines now and then it's just a matter of getting used to the "flow" of things.

Jim

[Harley Munroe]

Jim Sliff

Hello,
Well, that time your post actually said something.

If only for the fact that you were frustrated with me for my comment concerning your 192 words of abbreviations, and rude guffaw's, at other posters expense.

As far as my musical experience, I don't know how I could have made it much plainer!

I asked for advise on buying a, how did you so charmingly put it: - "cheapo beginner amp"

Well dah!!
Isn't that what I asked for, when I wrote:
"What AMPS might be considered a home-use 'student grade' AMP?"

How far below cheapo would that fit!!

As far as my musical experience:
I play acoustic guitar, (front porch experience) with an electrical pickup - that I don't ever use because it's too loud for home one-room use. (So I sold my 112 Bandit, which explains my need for a small, soft sounding AMP to use while learning how to play the PSG.)

Is that plain enough for you?

The other thread:
The other thread I felt was a slap at me, and **triggered** by me (which I do - truly regret) because of my title for this post:
"AMPS - Your opinion please!!"
Which I thought, and still think - even after more thought, was and is descriptive enough, so that people that have no interest in helping -- uneducated newbies (like me) wouldn't waste your beer drinking time to read or concern yourself with it.

Now, the search thing:
Yes, I could **behoove** myself and do that.

But then I wouldn't gotten the privilege of meeting some very kind, helpful, enjoyable, polite, friendly posters - who don't go around writing posts -- that are nothing more than one continuous abbreviation.

Which simple uneducated people like me can't read, because we don't know all the abbreviated jargon, and steel-speak that you experienced players use.

Concerning bandwidth:
I thought that paying the registration fee, and/or any dues necessary (which there doesn't seem to be any of, but which there should be at least a yearly one) and being polite, (at least while not being attacked) was all that was required by this forum.

And in doing so, allowed me my simple little harmless post of interest to like-minded and friendly people, (like myself - while not under attack) to visit and share thoughts, concerns, and ideas.

Where in the "Forum Rules and Policies" does it state that I can only post:
What YOU or anyone else considers to be a quality, educated, informed, substantive, and important post.

Perhaps you, rather than snicker at posts of others whom are less experienced than yourself, (at least in your humble opinion and whom did not ask you to guffaw at their lowly posts) could use your influence with the management of this forum to set up and publish a web-page with all the abbreviations, jargon, and steel-speak needed to understand your high-quality posts.

That would actually help everyone!!

Finally: Do I like to criticize others:
Well, yes and no.
I totally despise, self-righteous, self-important, arrogant, pompous people - whom, because of education, status, ability, physical-ability, money, luck or whatever other verb you care to choose, go around snickering at, belittling, berating, or physically abusing others simply because they can.

Under those conditions the answer is YES!!
I will fight those people with my last dying breath.

You sir in your original post, seemed to fit at least a portion that description like a glove.
But of course, I could just be wrong!
Am I?

Still, I do thank-you for the post!!
Why?
Because it was more informative and helpful than the first.
Harley Munroe

[Jim Sliff]

Harley - honestly, the first post I made wasn't aimed at you at all; it was comment on the state of the steel-amp industry as a whole, and what perceptions players have.

I didn't see where the other thread was pointed at you at all - read it again; Steve specifically mentioned threads that lead into advertisements. How in the world can you possibly think that one was aimed at you?

Two posts, both not mentioning you or criticizing you...but you react as if they are. Ahem - I don't think the problem lies with the folks who made those posts, my friend.

I would suggest, though, that a title like "Looking for small practice amp - advice?" would be more accurate and attract posters who are both interested and can offer suggestions; the open-ended title you used will draw in players who will read the initial post and react with something like "aw, man - not another "little amp thread". I wouldn't have bothered to spend my time here if I'd known". That "other thread" was talking about (at least in my view) a very common problem - thread titles that don't accurately define content, thus wasting people's time.

As far as your description of your musical background, no, it was NOT complete. NOW it is.

As far as helping "newbies", I still consider myself one with pedal steel. My experience is with 6-string and especially amplification, which is why I looked at your thread.

I also think you'll find, if you look around a bit, that I'm not a self-serving know-it-all who disains the uneducated and avoids their lowly questions (sarcasm meant with humor - clear?). Folks here have helped me more than I can ever repay, and I try to give as much as I can in areas where I have something to contribute. I do probably more of it through board-related email than on the board.

So you were not being insulted in either thread, yet YOU jumped posters in both - if you dial back the paranoia (and I do not see ANY other description for your thought that the "ambiguous" thread was triggered by you) you'll have a lot more fun.

Now some meat - for a good practice amp buy a silverface Fender Champ and a Holy Grail reverb unit; put good tubes in the Champ and you'll have a reasonably quiet amp with tone that will be phenomenally better than a cheap solid-state amp, plus you'll be making an investment; you will NEVER lose money on the Champ. OTOH, if you're not concerned with tone and money is the object, buy a small BASS amp - it will have more headroom than a guitar amp. Again, add a Holy Grail for reverb.

I hope that helps.

Jim

[Donny Hinson]

I have no problem playing through a 200-watt amp whose volume is turned wide open, and getting a nice, soft, room-level sound. Why so many other steelers can't is something I've never been able to understand.

Contrary to what some may say, good amps, of either the tube or solid-state design, can usually sound quite good. Cheap amps, of either tube or solid-state design, usually sound "less than good". "Small and inexpensive" despite the best engineering efforts, almost always comes out sounding "small and inexpensive", that's the way it works.

In the same manner, a Kia will never have the ride of a Cadillac and the performance and handling of a Corvette. The moral of the story is...sometimes you do get exactly what you pay for

[Jim Sliff]

Good points, Donny.

I usually recommend lower-powered amps for practice or small venues so the amp can drive fairly hard (which also changes completely how effects, especially "overdrive" and "distortion" (different things) work in the signal chain). That's because most amps at low volume - meaning turned up to "2" (which I'll use as an arbitrary number) tend to sound terrible.

And the reason 200W amps need to be turned down to "2" for practice falls on the player. As Donny notes, he can run a high-powered amp wide open and not play loud; I know drummers who can play full-bore with normal sticks at a conversational level.

It's called "control". If - and only if- you can develop your right hand to play normally with a very light touch BUT with authority you can pull it off. I have a ton of amps - from 1/2 watt tube amps to 1000-watt rack power amps - and normally my studio/den/computer room amp is a Fender Vibroverb (50 watts), a Holland Little Jimi (35 watts), a '69 Pro Reverb (40 watts) or an SWR PB-200 bass head (used for steel it's wonderful sounding). But these amps aren't on "2" - they're somewhere around 7-8 on the volume with the tone controls set according to the amp's quirks. Yet I'm playing while people are sleeping.

However, if I want to wake them up all I need to do is alter my right-hand dynamics and we can rattle windows.

Most of the better players - steel and 6-string - that I know do the same thing. They run a low-to mid powered (in some cases, with solid-state, a higher-powered amp...but that's because of differences in how they reproduce sound, not volume. A 200W SS amp is often no louder than a 50W tube amp, but that's for a different, more involved discussion.) with the volume almost wide open, and rely on right-hand dynamics to control volume, attack, overdrive (depending on amp setup) and sustain. Incidentally, most of those players only use compressors for special effect, because a compressor would destroy the whole "infrastructure" - you'd lose the right-hand dynamics and everything that goes with it.

Caveat - I have posted often in the past about "too much amp" syndrome, where players complain about lousy "practice" or "small club" tone because they have to turn their amp way down to play quietly. So I'll suggest (and it's not just me - most amp techs follow the same guidelines) using the smallest amp you can to get *your* tone and turning it up.

Very skilled players, though, know that there's no need to do this IF you have exceptional control of your right hand. Most players don't, and most teachers don't teach right-hand dynamics - they teach theory (maybe), songs, licks, scales, technique...but very little about "control".

All my students (when I was teaching) were taught right-hand dynamics VERY early in the process. Musically, you can say a lot more (IMO) with 2 or 3 dynamically-impacted notes than a whole flurry of stuff fired off with the same attack and picking method (thus my dislike of compressors and their "flatline" control).

So back to practice amps - the Champ I mentioned is part of the "too much amp" avoidance method - small, low powered amp with good tone that you can turn up.

But...

Better would be to take something like a 40 watt Super Reverb (just to pull one out of a hat), bias it for the style of steel you play (lots of headroom...or less headroom), turn it up to 6-7 and TRY to play quietly. It might take months to learn, but few players who force themselves to do it fail. Most don't have the patience, however; or they are never told it can be done, hence we have tons of cheap practice amps available that can be used by players lacking right-hand dynamics.

A last clarification - NOT being able to play with an amp wide open does not mean you are a bad player by any means. It just means you don't know a particular way of playing, just like I don't have a clue how to play a guitar with chromatic strings.

I really think it's a very valuable skill, however. And it can save you from buying cheap, bad sounding practice amps just to achieve a practical volume level.

[Bill Moore]

Harley, the earlier post by Bob Hoffnar summed it up in the fewest words. Some small amps that I have used that sounded good, Fender Squire 15, Peavey Studio Pro 40, Roland Cube 40, Fender Frontman 25R, Peavey Transfex 208S, Peavey Envoy 110. If the amp doesn't have reverb, like the Squire 15, you probably would want to get a reverb or delay pedal. The Peavey 258 you mentioned would probably be fine. "Tone" is probably the last thing a new player should be worried about. Concentrate on learning the basics, picking, blocking, playing in tune etc. Good luck to you.

[Jim Sliff]

"Tone" is probably the last thing a new player should be worried about.

I disagree. "Tone", if examined in the "big picture" is affected by how you you play, and with a lousy-sounding amp you'll never pick up on the nuances of right-hand control. IMO a good sounding, responsive amp is a huge benefit to a new player, as it will properly and clearly reflect what he's doing. Practicing with a bad amp can cause you to develop bad technique that you can't hear until you're playing live with good equipment - which will be a very unforgiving and humbling experience.

[Bill Moore]

Jim, you are so predictable......

"Right hand control"
the most important thing is to learn the proper right hand position:

[Harley Munroe]

Good morning to all;

First as always, I would like to thank everyone who has taken up their time to try and help me - with my amplifier education, by posting to this thread, and by private emails.

After reading each and every post over and over, (Yes, Mr. Sliff, yours included) and doing some serious sole searching, I decided that I would follow a piece of advise my father used to give me many, many years ago on a regular basis.

That being:
"If you're going to do it, do it right - if not -- don't do it at all!"

(((Of course that was usually followed by a comment not applicable to this situation but summed up as: "I don't want to have to straighten out, what you Sc@@Wed up.")))

So, despite the fact that I did-not want to spend a substantial amount of money on an AMP - to try and learn how to play an instrument that - I don't even know, which end to stick where, (PSG) I did.

Closing a purchase a few minutes ago on a 2 mo. old P.- NV 112, an E.Ball volume pedal, and various other extras to hook everything up together, from a fellow forum member.

So, I now have, what I consider to be both a nice guitar and a nice AMP.

Next step is to learn how to make noise on them.

(((My poor wife has already purchased a whole case of ear-plugs, as she continues to busily search the want adds under: 'Apartments for rent.' - However, I'm still not sure if the apartment is going to be for me or her, but I guess I'll find that out soon enough.)))

One more time:

THANK-YOU to EVERYONE for their opinions and posts!!!

Harley

[Curt Langston]

Another possible route, luck willing, would be to find a solid used guitar preamp and then practice with phones until you can buy an inexpensive used power amp/speaker cabinet combination. There are some pretty cool older preamps out there (the Yamaha's especially come to mind) that have great tonal control, lots of flexibility, and it seems like they're bottom dollar when you can find them.

Thats what I did, and this is what I used.

Works well.

[Jim Sliff]

"Right hand control"
the most important thing is to learn the proper right hand position:

Bill - you can place your personal comments in a dark place....

As far as the "proper" hand position - that's a matter of opinion, and there is certainly NO one "proper" hand position. "Position" is also not what I was talking about, I was talking about "control" - which apparently you lack in several areas demonstrated by both your post and personal comment.



Harley - good decision! In the long run you'll save money; you will also stand a much better chance of improving more quickly as a player when you're using better equipment. Now you can get down to tackling the greased-octopus without worrying "is it me or the equipment" (That's not meant negatively at all; but by taking bad/cheap equipment out of the equation you can simply concentrate on playing, which is a good thing!)

[Billy Carr]

The NV-112 is an excellent choice for a psg amp. I've had 5 or 6. Anything to do with steel guitar is usually a individual thing. Different players like and dislike different things. For sitting around the house and practing, any amp will do but for going out to a club or concert environment I'd seriously look at a steel amp with at 200 watts up to 300 watts. The 112 is a perfect amp but at 80 watts it would probably need to be miked or run directly through the board in a large surrounding. Thanks to you, Harley, for joining our little steel guitar world. There's a lot of us here that are strictly steel players and don't mind talking steel with you anytime. I started in 71' and now I'm into my 37th year of following this wonderful thing called pedal steel guitar. It's very addictive! Beware! Good luck!

[Tim Kowalski]

Harley,
To be very general, it is my opinion that the most important feature when choosing a practice amp is TONE CONTROL. If you can find a small amp with a parametric or graphic EQ (the more bands the better) you will probably be able to get a decent tone.
Whatever you buy, you will want something else. It is the uncontrollable desire for better tone.
If you can find something with nice reverb that would save you from buying an external effects unit. You will definitely want nice lush reverb.
That's my opinion in its simplest form.

Tim