Did Hippies Hurt or Help American Music?

[Pete Finney]

Meaningless trivia department: The Dylan outtake of "Mr Tambourine Man" in question was indeed just him with Ramblin' Jack Elliot on the harmony vocal, apparently it's the version the Byrds learned the song from. One can only guess that it wasn't released at the time because it didn't have the vocal precision that people had come to expect...!

It's on the soundtrack CD(s) from the Martin Scorsese Dylan film "No Direction Home", which has got a whole CD of interesting outtakes from 65-66 era "electric" Dylan if you're into that kind of thing.

[Keith Cordell]

Sorry if I am repeating...

We tend to think of hippie music or 60's music in terms of the Beatles and the post folkies; We can't overlook the MC5, Blue Cheer, Black Sabbath, The Stooges... they were a very definite part of the whole thing. Heck, the MC5 were blamed for part of the rioting at the Democratic National Convention that went down in infamy. Wayne Kramer still thinks of himself as part hippie, part punk.
Another part of the scene was the acceptance of just about anyone that didn't condescend or pass judgement. Look at photos of Woodstock or Haight Ashbury and a substantial portion of the crowd are short haired, horn rimmed types and everyone is wearing a smile.

To me, that is the real lasting legacy of the 60's musically. I am a Gen-Xer and still find that part of musical history fascinating.

[Brint Hannay]

I remember at the time of the 1963 March On Washington where Martin Luther King gave his "I Have a Dream" speech, Dylan appeared solo on the local PBS station (I think it was--my memory's a little fuzzy as to whether PBS existed yet then--at any rate, he was on TV) singing "Blowin' In the Wind". I was watching with my parents. At the time, none of us had ever heard him sing, but we had all heard the Peter, Paul and Mary version of the song, and knew that Bob Dylan was the writer, so we all took an anticipatory interest when he was introduced. I will never forget the absolute horror and revulsion that my parents registered when he began to sing. I felt pretty much the same.

I do think that he actually became, in a bizarre way, a very good singer of his own songs for a couple of years in which his writing style matched his vocal style--roughly "Bringing It All Back Home" through "Blonde On Blonde".

Personally, although I haven't heard it, I have a hard time imagining Judy Collins (a wonderful singer in her own way) doing "Like a Rolling Stone" justice.
There are different kinds of good singing.

[Mike Winter]

Like Joan Baez butchered "The Night They Dove Old Dixie Down," by singing, "Till so much cavalry came" instead of "Till Stoneman's cavalry came."

[Doug Beaumier]

Dylan has got to be the worst singer in history to become a super-star singer.

Yes, and in 1997 he won a Grammy for Best Male Rock Vocal!

The Shaggs should have won a Grammy for Best Rock Performance by a Group.

[Mike Perlowin]

The Shaggs should have won a Grammy for Best Rock Performance by a Group.

For those who have yet to experience the rapture....
http://www.rhapsody.com/theshaggs

[Mark Eaton]

Chuck Berry(who was ripped off by the Beach Boys using the melody to Sweet Little Sixteen for Surfin USA)

Here is how the songwriting credit reads for the song "Surfin' USA:" (Brian Wilson/Chuck Berry).

After pressure by Chuck (the song had already been released).

As far as any discussions of the quality Dylan's singing voice, I like a comment my brother made awhile back regarding the same subject brought up on another internet forum:

"Tell me something that my dad didn't bring up 40 years ago."

As was quite likely brought up by most "dads" 40 years ago, for those of us old enough to have been around.

It's not like a light bulb suddenly went on and people are making the realization that a music professor might not give a good grade to Dylan for a singing performance were he in their class.

No great revelation here in 2008.

And no need to take the apologetic stance for his voice and point out that despite the voice, he's a fine songwriter. That's a little like pointing out that Alex Rodriguez is a fine hitter of baseballs.

[Olli Haavisto]

I`ll take anything sung by Dylan over anything by a "great singer" like for example Michael Bolton.
Same goes for Lucinda Williams vs. Houston,Carey etc. Personality,phrasing etc is the stuff that will be remembered years from now, not technical virtuosity.

[Donny Hinson]

Personality,phrasing etc is the stuff that will be remembered years from now, not technical virtuosity.

Those who can recognize and appreciate technical virtuosity will remember it.

Those who can't, won't.

[Olli Haavisto]

Donny,
That`s true. I meant that music that is built on technical virtuosity alone is hollow and won`t stand the test of time.
Virtuosity combined with statement and substance will give us musicians like Charlie Parker.

[Mike Perlowin]

Getting back to the subject of hippie music, or rather combining it with the subject of technical virtuosity for it's own sake without soul or intelligence, (also known as diarrhea of the fingers,) I bring up Alvin (not Albert) Lee and Ten Years After's performance at Woodstock.

Some of the music in the film holds up well after 37 years, and some of it seems somewhat immature today. Lee's performance seemed that way (to me at least) when the film was first released.

Here's a guy with jet propelled fingers and all he does is show off how fast he can play, while saying absolutely nothing.

Jimmy Day said it best, referring to another player (who shall remain nameless) "Boy, I really wish I could do that, and then I wouldn't."

[Jim Cohen]

...Here's a guy with jet propelled fingers and all he does is show off how fast he can play, while saying absolutely nothing.

It probably sounded just about right to a large segment of the audience who were listening in slow-motion.

[Mark Eaton]

For folks in our general age group, any time I come across someone that loved Alvin Lee's frantic Woodstock performance, my opinion of their taste in music drops a notch...it's sort of a baby boomer music barometer for me.

[Wayne Carver]

Does anyone remember a band called Goose Creek Symphony? Kind of a countryfied hippy sound.
http://www.goosecreeksymphony.com/

[Mike Perlowin]

Does anyone remember a band called Goose Creek Symphony? Kind of a countryfied hippy sound.
http://www.goosecreeksymphony.com/

I used to have their LP. Really nice stuff as I recall.

[Stephen Gambrell]

We probably rolled our first one, listening to Goose Creek. Good band, good sense of humor. Ask an Southern (ex) hippie about Goose Creek, you'll see a grin...
"Sittin' here,
Thinkin' 'bout you dear,
And I've got a rush on love."

[David L. Donald]

The hippie generational attitude did filter out
into many segments of society for good and all.

Many people with very anti-hippie attitudes
would have been VERY surprised at how much
hippie influence would modify their future lives,
and that THEY would be glad of it,
whether knowing the source or not.

Did they ruin music. Heck no.
If drum machines couldn't kill it,
how could hippies!

If anything hippies revitalized country by
pulling Bluegrass back from the shadows,
and making it, and the old songs, relevent again.

[Charlie McDonald]

New question:
"Did Charles Ives hurt or help American music?"

Funny, I woke up tryin to remember the name of Blind Faith. Some things stick with you.

And yes to 'Gimme Some Lovin.'

I have enjoyed this thread.
Herb brings back great memories.

[Webb Kline]

What I'd like to know is how a guy whose own generation gave us dumbed-down distortion-laden, music where seldom a guitar solo is heard, men scream like a bunch of sick psycho-paths, and if you can actually hear the lyrics, all you hear is a litany of negativism and hatred, can honestly question the contributions of a movement who promulgated love and peace, opposed violence, tried to clean up the environment and diminish energy dependency on natural resources, and produced some of the most incredible music ever written. Am I right about this or am I just having flashbacks?

[Jim Cohen]

Webb, I think you're seeing things entirely too clearly. Better sit down and have a nice cuppa tea...

[John Rickard]

This should help mellow y'all out!

[P Gleespen]

What I'd like to know is how a guy whose own generation gave us dumbed-down distortion-laden, music where seldom a guitar solo is heard, men scream like a bunch of sick psycho-paths, and if you can actually hear the lyrics, all you hear is a litany of negativism and hatred, can honestly question the contributions of a movement who promulgated love and peace, opposed violence, tried to clean up the environment and diminish energy dependency on natural resources, and produced some of the most incredible music ever written. Am I right about this or am I just having flashbacks?

That characterization of the music of Matt's generation is every bit as silly and incorrect as Matt's characterization of the music of yours.

...but you MIGHT be having flashbacks.

[Mat Rhodes]

"...a guy whose own generation gave us dumbed-down distortion-laden..."

"...men scream like a bunch of sick psycho-paths..."

If the UK bands can be included in my generation, then I'd have to disagree with you about the distortion part. Much of that stuff was distortion-free. Johnny Marr, to name one excellent guitarist, is one of the cleanest and precise players I've ever heard. The Edge (U2) is/was similar.

Your assessment of distortion and screaming is true of many American "hair metal" bands at that time. But metal was only a small part of the picture.

"...where seldom a solo is heard..."

I heard too darn many at that time. Nearly every song from every genre had to have the obligatory solo that started off slow, built up speed, and invariably ended in a crescendo of maple splinters.

"...all you hear is a litany of negativism and hatred..."

Maybe that's true of some metal bands like Megadeth, Slayer, and whatnot. But that simply wasn't true of the pop and sub-pop genres. I recall most of those being about women, partying, malls, getting with women, dancing, and more partying. Happier times under the Reagan era - nothing to protest and get worked up about.

"...can honestly question the contributions of a movement who promulgated love and peace, opposed violence, tried to clean up the environment and diminish energy dependency on natural resources..."

Wow. Mighty thin ice, Mr. Kline. I can't question the motives - that generation started off with the best of intentions. But, without assigning blame to EVERYONE of that generation, many of the ideals you mention have been "sold out" by some of its members who now run things. Perhaps parenthood will do that to anyone.

"...produced some of the most incredible music ever written..."

That's the verdict everyone here seems to have reached. And that's why I will constantly review the recommendations of this thread.

[Mark Eaton]

Nowadays music has found itself classified into an endless amount of sub genres and we didn't have so
many of those in decades past.

What do you like? Take your pick.

Rock-Metal-Thrash Metal-Punk (second generation) -Roots-Americana-Jam Band-Alt Country-Hard Country-Country-Pop-Bluegrass-Progressive Bluegrass- New Acoustic-Gospel-Contemporary Christian-Rap-Hip Hop-Hyphy(sp?)-Jazz-Smooth Jazz, and so forth and so on.


The majority of this stuff was there in a different form back in the so-called hippie era.

One of my all-time favorite groups is The Band. Some refer to them as the "fathers of roots rock." I saw the original version in concert about five times, and the latter, re-formed version minus Robbie Robertson, a couple of times.

They really weren't hippies, but they were of that era. And in the well-documented story, their dramatic debut with Music From Big Pink was a major catalyst for Eric Clapton to break up the hugely successful Cream, which did a lot of stuff which would now fall under the category of Jam Band.

Another of my favorites I posted about earlier in the thread, Quicksilver Messenger Service, along with some psychedelic "jammy" sounding stuff, were known for their stellar versions of Bo Diddley classics "Who Do You Love" and "Mona." In concert, these songs paid major tribute to the originals by Bo himself. The sounds of the guitars of John Cippolina and Gary Duncan would crack like whips through the concert hall.

They were part of the San Francisco Scene, but tunes like that were anything but hippie songs.

And ironically, sometime Quicksilver member Dino Valente aka Chet Powers, was the writer of the ultimate hippie anthem, "Get Together" ("C'mon people now, smile on your brother, everbody get together, try and love one another right now") but to my knowledge, Quicksilver never actually recorded it. the group that had the big hit with the song was Jesse Colin Young and The Youngbloods. But Valente even wrote the song in the pre-hippie era, while living in New York's Greenwich Village during "The Great Folk Music Scare," around 1963.

I submit this post to illustrate that Matt's original question is so simple and stripped down in it's nature that it has inspired one of the longest threads here in quite some time.

And the reason for that is because of the vining and intertwining of musical genres and influences, you can't ask a question so simple, and expect any kind of a cut-and-dried answer.

So to answer Matt's question, did hippies hurt or help music?

They helped it, of course! But even the ultimate hippie band, the Grateful Dead, had a major affection for songs from country icons like Marty Robbins, Buck Owens, Merle Haggard and Hank Williams, and they included those songs as a regular part of their concert repertoire.

Just like the rest of America, popular music is one big old melting pot!

[Mike Perlowin]

What I'd like to know is how a guy whose own generation gave us ... can honestly question the contributions of a movement who promulgated love and peace, opposed violence, tried to clean up the environment and diminish energy dependency on natural resources, and produced some of the most incredible music ever written.

Webb, you can't blame Matt. He admitted he was, in his words, "poisoned" by listening to talk radio.

The REAL question is why the pundits of talk radio are attempting to rewrite history. This doesn't just apply to hippies. They are now saying things about Joe McCarthy and Richard Nixon, that for the sake of adhering to b0b's rules I won't repeat.

I believe it's all about corporatism. Big Business feels threatened by social movements that they can't control. The hippie movement was regarded as a threat, and indeed, it did put a huge dent in the coffers of corporate America.

Imagine. People making their own music instead on buying records by such corporate creations as Fabian and the 3 Bobbys (Vinton, Vee and Rydell) People opening and patronizing small restaurants instead of eating at big chains, Making things instead of buying them.

People thinking for themselves instead of blindly believing the voices of authority.

No wonder the forces of reaction are trying to discredit the movement. They're still afraid of it.