Did Hippies Hurt or Help American Music?

[Stephen Gambrell]

Hey John, down here they called 'em "odd" chords, as in "This song's in 'A'. What's the odd chord?"

[David L. Donald]

Sounds like his old bands didn't even play
all the bluegrass chords.
They just plugged in, add a V7
and called it country not bluegrass.

But I can't imagine doing Jimmy7 Rogers
or Hank and NOT playing a II chord.

They just didn't have ears,
or the motivation to find some...

Odd chords HA!

[Steinar Gregertsen]

Odd chords HA!

I usually call them "Do-You-Want-To-Step-Outside-And-Repeat-That!" chords

Steinar

[Mike Winter]

I was just wondering if anyone here was at the Opry when The Byrds played, with Lloyd Green on steel? Since this thread is about hippie contributions to music, I'll toss this out there. A landmark moment as far as I'm concerned. Love to hear from you...even if you weren't there, what do you think?

http://www.opry.com/OpryNews/CoverStori ... 31-40.aspx

COVER STORY

80 Unforgettable Moments
at the Grand Ole Opry


"33. March 15, 1968 – Rock group the Byrds, featuring Gram Parsons and future Desert Rose Band member Chris Hillman, perform on the Grand Ole Opry. The group sings Bob Dylan’s “You Ain’t Goin’ Nowhere,” then substitutes the original “Hickory Wind” for a planned cover of Merle Haggard’s “Sing Me Back Home.”

[David L. Donald]

All I know is I wish I had been there.

[Mike Winter]

Me too.

[Mike Winter]

Beuler? Beuler? Anyone? Anyone?

[b0b]

I prefer brevity and music with a point.

The Beatles were a hippy band, weren't they? Also CS&N, Flying Burrito Brothers, Eagles, Steely Dan, the list goes on. To me, the music of those hippy bands still sounds terse and well arranged.

Even bands that meandered, like the Grateful Dead, made deliberate and beautiful musical statements on occasion. It may not have had "brevity", but the point was made. It was art.

Dave VA, Hippies didn't invent the personal computer. If memory serves, it was "officially" invented by IBM in the late 50's. That was a little before your time.

A bit off topic, but there was nothing "personal" about any of IBM's computers until the mid 1980's. Personal computers do not share any direct lineage with IBM's office behemoths of the 60's. Ward Christianson may have been an IBM employee, but the hardware and operating system he used for the first BBS came from a different, more free-wheeling culture.

[Eric Jaeger]

Dave VA, Hippies didn't invent the personal computer. If memory serves, it was "officially" invented by IBM in the late 50's. That was a little before your time.

A bit off topic, but there was nothing "personal" about any of IBM's computers until the mid 1980's. Personal computers do not share any direct lineage with IBM's office behemoths of the 60's. Ward Christianson may have been an IBM employee, but the hardware and operating system he used for the first BBS came from a different, more free-wheeling culture.

The personal computer was certainly a product of hippie freaks. All IBM did was (as usual) copy something other people had already created. All you need to do is look at early pictures of Steve Wozniak, Steve Jobs, Nolan Bushnell.... Or those freaks in Albuquerque writing compilers. What was their name? Ah, yes, "Microsoft"....

-eric

[Dave Mudgett]

Yeah - PCs didn't start until the 70s. IMO, there was a strong mix of tech-geek engineering types, computer scientists, and less technical longhair visionaries involved with the early PC movement. One set of keys were integrated circuits, microprocessors, chip memory, and so on - pocket protectors abounded back in those days. Another was software, where I have always found the personality types very mixed. Another was to have a vision about what to do with all this beyond what scientist numerical analysts and business management information systems people were doing.

I confess, as the scientist and info systems guy that I was and still am - I think most of the deep technical people really just couldn't see the possibilities for ubiquitous computing for the masses. I think most really believed that regular people were too ignorant to make serious use of computers.

My point? It takes all kinds of people do really do anything creative and interesting with technology - even ragged hippies or other nonconformists. IMHO, of course.

On the subject of what these far-out nonconformists contributed to music - to address the original question (all my opinions, of course):

Frankly, popular music was pretty bloody stale and anal-retentive right before the mid-60s. The real 50s rock and roll movement was co-opted and devoured by the onmivorous music business machine. Modern jazz was largely marginalized as a highbrow style. Country music was a largely separate regional thread. The early Beatles and Stones were an attempt to break these chains loose. But it was very derivative of earlier American blues and rock and roll, IMHO. I think it took what happened in the US in '66 or so to really bring them alive.

To me, the hippie movement was primarily about pushing boundaries in the face of strong cultural repression. They were proper descendents of the beat generation, but they were not as intellectual. The message was not as threatening and was much easier to mainstream. Any reasonably open-minded middle-class kid could find a way to relate if they wanted to, and it was open to others also.

Like any such movement, there was a lot of excessive behavior - the issue was to push the boundaries, simply because they were there and nobody in authority was interested in explaining why they needed to be. There were a lot of unstated premises that adults just seemed to expect us to understand innately - but we hadn't gone through a major depression and two world wars like they and their parents had. They had a vision of the world that we couldn't possibly hope to understand without just going out and living. I don't think we had much choice but to strike out on our own. Of course, affluent middle-class parents wanted to protect their kids from the pain they themselves had endured, and there was a lot of conflict. But sometimes this kind of stuff just has to be experienced.

As far as the music goes - it comes down to personal taste, doesn't it. There were some great bands with great players who didn't meander all over the place on every tune like Quicksilver Messenger Service (with the great guitarist John Cipollina), Love (with Arthur Lee), the ever-evolving Butterfield Blues Band, and many others like this. Of course, there were the jam-band predecessors like the Grateful Dead, Allman Bros., and so on. Some of these bands ultimately broke both the short-song model and the business model, by touring incessantly and making the live performance as or even more important than any studio-generated recording. The Beatles, Stones, Bob Dylan, and many others were heavily influenced by all of this. The influence also went the other direction - this was a huge musical melting pot. IMO, all of this brought rock and rollers into country music, jazz, blues, soul, and R&B, and created the mix that lead to a lot of current popular musical styles.

Of course, there were lots of "concept" bands that quickly came on the heels of "flower-power". A lot of major metro areas had them. I grew up in Boston, and we had these (IMO) pretentious "Bosstown Sound" bands like Ultimate Spinach and The Beacon Street Union, all on MGM. A lot of this kind of stuff was old-business-model stuff - just with different hair and clothes. Like always, there was a ton of other forgettable stuff too.

Overall - outside of the best so-called 'hippie' bands, whose music stands up like the best of any generation - the major contribution was to break down the barriers to people making popular music without being completely controlled by the "organized" music biz (you can interpret that any way you want). If you see some of us old pharts rail about what's going on - it's because we see that business model trying to re-establish that control on the backs of musicians.

Quite frankly - there has been lots of fine music the last 30 years. I have no bias against any particular style, as long as it's played well by actual musicians. The fact that there is a lot of - to my tastes - dreck doesn't concern me in the least. There has always been dreck. But there is a sea change in the last 20-30 years on the proportion of dreck on commercial radio. I like brevity and music with a point - but not all great music is a 3-minute musical soundbite. Sometimes, the point a lot of concise music makes is not musically interesting. Of course, that's a value judgement, so the usual caveats apply.

If you're looking for a list of great music from that period - all any of us could do would be to tell you our preferences, which would probably not be all that useful. I think a serious musician needs to explore different styles of music - I listen to music from every period I can find. I like some, I don't like some, but over time, I think listening to a wide variety helps me define where I want to go myself. I don't think the brain works very well in an information vacuum - it needs stuff in there to really get the creative juices flowing.

All my opinions, of course. Yeah, it's a long post, but did you really expect a 25-word soundbite that captured the essence of this?

[Edward Meisse]

I think you summed it up nicely, Dave. The post looks longer than it actually is.

[b0b]

...and a lot of hippy music isn't as bad as it sounds.

[Mike Winter]

Bump

Byrds on the Opry...Beuler? Beuler? Anyone? Class? Anyone?

[Mat Rhodes]

Dave Mudgett, without devaluating the previous responses, I believe that is the best one I've read yet - it would convince anyone. Now I know why my sister went to Penn State.

The only part you left out was how my parents irreparably damaged me at the age of three with hours upon hours of Bob Dylan's "Nashville Skyline", Jimi's "Are You Experienced", The Moody Blues' "On The Threshold...", and the Sergeant Pepper album. At 38, I still cry myself to sleep.

Believe it or not, this was never about my parents or an unhappy childhood, etc. Mike Perlowin may have something to say about this, but my real "poisoning" has come from casually listening to 15 years of all kinds of talk radio. That's the truth, but we won't go there since this is a music-oriented thread. Suffice it to say that that stuff has a way of skewing history to support whatever the agenda of the week is.

Due to the overwhelming examples, pictures, artist lists, I'm forced to admit my initial comments were shortsighted. I apologize to everyone who was offended by my assessment and the tone therein. Just try not to confuse passion and conviction with hatred. There's quite a difference, and I don't remember ever haterin' anyone on the Forum.

I think the only thing extra this thread could probably use (for future prejudiced and biased types like myself) is a recommended discography. The artist lists are great in themselves, but I wouldn't know a masterpiece album from a middlin' one unless I bought every album in their catalog (too much $ since I have to save for retirement at this point). Nor would a teenager reading this.

And to Jason Odd, you're an astute fellow Gen-Xer. I share Herb Steiner's desire to meet you. To answer your question in your previous post ("sadly"), Hunter S. Thompson said it best at the end of "Fear And Loathing...". Two decades of idealism were abandoned as if they were some fad that lost its popularity. Anyway, that's what I took from the book when I was 16.

In any case, I owe a big thanks to all of you for your informative contributions.

[Edward Meisse]

Nice post, Matt. Very gracious. And graceFUL as well.

[Jason Odd]

Awesome answer, and don't get me started on the short comings of the hippy generation, it, like most.. had plenty.

Of course what I like about the 60s most everybody hates, heavy metal.. Black Sabbath, Alice Cooper(when they were still a band), etc. were the most disgraceful hippy bastards to grace the earth, and I love 'em.

Each to their own, but the late 60s-early 70s gave us The country-rock Byrds, Poco, Silver Apples, Three Dog Night, Neil Young, Mannassas, Santana, The Modern Lovers, The new York Dolls, Aerosmith, Bruce Springsteen, Black Sabbath, Skid Row, Fairport Convention, Fotheringay, Matthews Southern Comfort, Moby Grape, Pink Floyd, Amon Dull, Amon Dull II, Can, Kraftwerk, Tangerine Dream, Taj Mahal Band, Asylum Choir, Moon, Frank Zappa (solo), The Corvettes, The Faces, Deep Purple, The Earl Scruggs Revue, The Jeff Beck Group, Southwind, The Eagles, Great Speckled Bird, the Strange Creek Singers, Seatrain, Savoy Brown, Dr. John, Love, Jim Ford, The Flatlanders, Fletwood Mac, The Band, Knowbody Else, Cargoe, Big Star, Bread, Creedence Clearwater Revival, Delbert & Glen, Swampwater, Brinsley Schwarz, Eternity's Children, Argent, Crazy Horse, Warren Zevon, Red Krayola, Funkadelic, Os Mutantes, Gong, Humble Pie, Joe South, Jimmy Buffett, Bruce Haack, The Millenium, Andy Roberts, the Stonemans, Jack & Misty, Elton John, Duster Bennett, ... there's so much more, so much more...

[Jason Odd]

Of course Matt, your original post-query could have been gracious and graceful, but it's lack of.. generated a rather passionate response from many, which was quite interesting.

[Mike Perlowin]

Mike Perlowin may have something to say about this, but my real "poisoning" has come from casually listening to 15 years of all kinds of talk radio.

The only thing I can say that won't violate b0b's "no politics" rule is that I'm glad you realize that talk radio is poisonous.

You're better off listening to music.

[Steve Hitsman]

I'll start the discography for Matt:

"Sweetheart of the Rodeo" The Byrds
"American Beauty", "Workingman's Dead" Grateful Dead
"Moby Grape" Moby Grape
"Quicksilver Messenger Service" QMS
"The Gilded Palace of Sin" Flying Burrito Brothers
"The Low Spark of High Heeled Boys" Traffic
"The Band", "Cahoots", "Stage Fright" The Band
"Benefit", Jethro Tull
"Court and Spark", Joni Mitchell
"In My Own Dream", "The Resurrection of Pigboy Crabshaw", Paul Butterfield Blues Band

Just a start with some of my all-time favorites.

If you come to St. Louis for the ISGC, Matt, I'll buy you a beer.

[P Gleespen]

Matt, are you looking for recommendations on just "hippy" stuff, or more of the 60's in general?

(Jason! Knowing you, I can't believe you left the Stooges off that list! ...and I thought all of Australia had a Stooges sweet-tooth. )

[Brint Hannay]

Steve H., an excellent list!

Especially the inclusion of "Moby Grape" and "Quicksilver Messenger Service", which, as products of the Haight-Ashbury scene are as "hippie" as you can get!, and are by far the most accomplished products of that scene, IMO.

While The Byrds' "Sweetheart" album is of course dear to our hearts because of all that steel, its overt "country" intentions may make it less characteristic of the particular creativity of the musical era in question. I think the best album by the "hippie" incarnation of The Byrds is "Dr. Byrds and Mr. Hyde". (The others are spotty at best, IMO.)

A favorite of mine that seems much neglected is "The Grateful Dead", their first album release. (This is the one with the photo collage cover, not the later double album with the skeleton.) For those who haven't heard it, it would be quite a surprise, I think. The band is tight and energetic, nothing like the extended, laid-back noodling that everyone associates with them today. On this album, they rock! "American Beauty" and "Workingman's Dead" are great, but entirely different.

[Steve Hitsman]

Brint,

I almost included that Dead album but keeping in mind Matt's aversion to too much soloing, I avoided because of the extended "Viola Lee Blues".

[Brint Hannay]

Good point. But at least "Viola Lee Blues" has a lot of energy and drive.

[Marc Jenkins]

I would include the Band's debut, 'Music From Big Pink' as well. Great list!

[Mike Perlowin]

more for the list:

Surrealistic Pillow- Jefferson Airplane
A Whiter Shade of Pale- Procol Harum
Music From Big Pink- The Band
Sunshine Superman- Donavan
Beatles- my faves are Revolver and Abbey Road
Pet sounds- The Beach Boys
Do You Believe in Magic and Daydream- The Lovin' Spoonful.
Disreali Gears- Cream
Highway 61 Revisited and Blond on Blond- Bob Dylan
the "beano" album , John Mayall with Eric Claption
the 1st Santana album
Electric Music for the Mind and Body, and Fixing to Die Rag- Country Joe and the Fish
The Fugs
The first 2 Doors albums
the second Buffalo Springfield album