Tone is in the hands??????

Les Green · Post by **Les Green** » 27 Jan 2008 10:34 am

I'm still searching for that "MUDDY" tone the older MSA's are supposed to have. Haven't found it yet. Keep searching I guess............

Terry Sneed · Post by **Terry Sneed** » 27 Jan 2008 2:58 pm

Keep searching I guess............
_________________

Yep Les, their out there for sure. My first steel guitar was an MSA D-10. Stock pickups as far as i know. I wouldn't call it muddy, but mine was mellow, waay to mellow.

Terry

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 27 Jan 2008 4:38 pm

Here's something Paul Franklin said a couple of years ago...

Its easy to change instruments and amps for a difference in tone. It much harder to master the actual playing of the instrument which is the only method that can provide the tone we all dream of having.

I think that's his way of saying what I've always said. You can't buy the tone, you have to make it.

One overall observation I've come to make (gleaned from many steel jams, live performances, CD's, and internet clips) is that a great many players who obsess about their "tone" would do far better to obsess more about their playing skills. Most times, comments I hear from steelers about other steelers seldom center on their "tone", but more often on their playing ability, and how capable they are at playing certain types of music.

I also don't believe I've ever heard "he has a bad tone" from someone in a recording studio. There, the emphasis seems to be on playing in tune, and playing something interesting. As one engineer put it..."I can give them tone, but I can't give them good ears or an imagination."

James Collett · Post by **James Collett** » 27 Jan 2008 5:10 pm

Bingo! The individual plays a much larger part than something small like a pickup, etc.

Tim Bridges · Post by **Tim Bridges** » 27 Jan 2008 5:49 pm

If there's one thing for tone, it's to the bone!

The finger bone's connected to the hand bone, the hand bone's connected to the wrist bone, the wrist bone...

It must be a lunar phenomena that causes these endless threads. You gotta love lunar influences!

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 27 Jan 2008 9:06 pm

Bingo! The individual plays a much larger part than something small like a pickup, etc.

But not in the TONE - in the style and concept.

It takes both to really excel - good musical/creative skills AND equipment with good tone.

But folks have to stop mistaking playing style for tone...it's amazing how many people just don't seem to comprehend the difference.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 27 Jan 2008 9:50 pm

I heard this guy in a bar once who was very drunk and playing very poorly. I've heard him sober and he wasn't very good then either. But he played a beat-up Emmons push-pull D-10 through an old Fender Twin Reverb and he had this gorgeous tone. If tone really does come from the hands, God has an amazing sense of humor.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 27 Jan 2008 10:43 pm

He had the timbre of PP Emmons
and a good amp that reproduced it well.

But if he had better technique,
he could also have had much better tone.

That part of the equation was missing.
When he somehow hits strings OK the tone was
as good as the equipment would allow.

Bad choices with adequate execution,
ie bad playing, are not the same as
bad tone production.

But if Lloyd had sat down on the same steel,
would the tone have been better?
My bet is yes.

Billy Murdoch · Post by **Billy Murdoch** » 28 Jan 2008 2:31 am

About six months ago I was asked to give lessons to an elderly man.I do not consider myself good enough to give lessons but I have always been willing to help someone on their way.My "student"told me he had a degree in music theory and had played guitar for many years in pubs and clubs.
It was agreed that He would come round to our house on a Sunday afternoon for a couple of hours for some pointers.
He never plays steel although He asks questions,usually the same questions each week,He prefers to bring His strat and have a jam.He is a nice old guy and I think He is lonely and Sunday is the highlight of His week,I cannot bring myself to cut him off and hurt His feelings.
He knows loads of guitar chords and He is the worst player I have ever met,He can put a guitar out of tune by just holding it and His sense of timing is deplorable.
I am labouring the point,
Prior to His arrival I set my steel up and play thru' some numbers and although self praise is no honour I am pleased with the tone and execution of the songs.
After about ten minutes of playing along with Jim I am wondering why I ever thought I could play steel,I am glad that no one else is present to witness this.
Anyway, after Jim leaves I give it another go and whaddya know,I sound ok again.
Is tone in someone else's hands.
Best regards
Billy

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 28 Jan 2008 6:10 am

Sounds like last wednesday's jam to me.

Left early, because starting to drink heavily
was the only alternative.

Yeah some people don't know how much an
external bad attitude can go to ruining a
steeling session, and how much doing it
with the patently inept can make it impossible.

Jams are for fun, if it ain't fun...
why are ya doing it?

James Collett · Post by **James Collett** » 28 Jan 2008 7:09 pm

Jim-
When I said "the individual," I wasn't talking about playing style, but what part that individual contributes to the tone (see Mr. Reece Anderson's thread- top "18" list). I didn't word my post well and left my meaning somwehat ambiguous- sorry for the confusion.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 28 Jan 2008 8:31 pm

But he played a beat-up Emmons push-pull D-10 through an old Fender Twin Reverb and he had this gorgeous tone. If tone really does come from the hands, God has an amazing sense of humor.

Einstein stated "God does not play dice with the universe" as his argument against statistical mechanics. I think he reluctantly acknowledged later that he was probably wrong.

I dunno - I've heard players without much technique - sloppy, can't play fast, and so on - who for some reason just had gorgeous tone on anything they touched, even on 6-string guitar where there are stark differences in construction technique. Somehow, they just knew how to get it. I especially think of certain blues players - many people have told me their technique is crude, how can they play that piece of garbage guitar through that garbage solid-state amp, and so on. But then they hit a note and it's magic.

So - I don't necessarily conclude that hearing a player with crude technique getting gorgeous tone on a P/P necessarily implies that the tone is all coming from the guitar.

Mind you, I'm not arguing that ALL tone comes from the hands. I don't think anybody's really been arguing that line. I totally agree that it's easier to extract a "great" tone from a "great" instrument. But a musical instrument - especially a steel guitar - is a forced vibratory system, not a freely vibrating one. One can manipulate the strings continuously with the bar, there are a myriad of picking techniques, and so on, that can fundamentally alter the composition of frequencies in the signal. That's how I define tonality or "timbre" - the mix of frequencies - amplitude and phase - in the signal that is heard by a listener.

Carl Dvorcek · Post by **Carl Dvorcek** » 1 Feb 2008 9:06 pm

I had this very conversation with Jeff Newman several years ago. We exchanged thoughts on two players having the exact same equipment down to the finger picks and one player would invariably feel or sense the other player had the tone he was looking for. The only difference was the hands which coupled with attack and blocking technique brought about the mystic tone we all seek. I asked him if he could define "tone"......His exact reply was " what color is red". He made a believer out of me.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 2 Feb 2008 7:37 pm

b0b wrote:I heard this guy in a bar once who was very drunk and playing very poorly. I've heard him sober and he wasn't very good then either. But he played a beat-up Emmons push-pull D-10 through an old Fender Twin Reverb and he had this gorgeous tone.

Gorgeous?

Gorgeous...compared to who? You? Jerry Garcia? Bobbe Seymour? Buddy Emmons?

Inquiring minds would like to know!

admin · Post by **b0b** » 2 Feb 2008 11:15 pm

Donny Hinson wrote:
b0b wrote:I heard this guy in a bar once who was very drunk and playing very poorly. I've heard him sober and he wasn't very good then either. But he played a beat-up Emmons push-pull D-10 through an old Fender Twin Reverb and he had this gorgeous tone.
Gorgeous?

Gorgeous...compared to who? You? Jerry Garcia? Bobbe Seymour? Buddy Emmons?

Inquiring minds would like to know!

Definitely compared to me.

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 3 Feb 2008 9:15 am

Have you noticed on the Forum how the topic of tone goes from TONAL to ANAL.

Disclaimer: This is a general statement not intended to reflect on any one thread.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 3 Feb 2008 9:31 am

I'll try to NOT retain that thought...

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 3 Feb 2008 1:18 pm

It took me years to get the tone that I like, and it also took the same amount of time to become reasonably proficient on the instrument.

I think there is a correlation there....

I also think that a large percentage of the tone is controlled by the hands (the tone can alter quite markedly, simply by picking further from the changer, for instance) but a good steel guitar and amp are a necessary part of the equation (for me, anyway)

I have owned/played many different brands of PSG, and have found it quite difficult to get a good sound out of some of the more recent models

Tone is in the ear of the beholder, as most people rave over the tone of a currently very popular brand of guitar, yet I find it whiney and unpleasant.

Maybe I'm like the young soldier whose parents are watching him at his passing-out parade:

"Ooh look...everyones out of step except our Billy"

Larry Robbins · Post by **Larry Robbins** » 3 Feb 2008 2:07 pm

Bo Legg wrote:Have you noticed on the Forum how the topic of tone goes from TONAL to ANAL.

Bo, Yes I have althouh I think that sometimes the reverse is true..Most times actually!!!!

Rocky Hill · Post by **Rocky Hill** » 3 Feb 2008 2:11 pm

Tone comes from the equipment, what you do with the tone comes from the hand.

Rocky

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 3 Feb 2008 2:21 pm

is the "tone" that a jazz player
tries to get the same " tone "
that a classic country player
tries to get ? or are they
two differant animals ?

Jeff Bradshaw · Post by **Jeff Bradshaw** » 3 Feb 2008 3:02 pm

WOW!!! b0b!!! That is a very eye poppin' foot contraption that you have linked to!!! ...jeff

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 3 Feb 2008 3:04 pm

Hard to say, Calvin. If you're talking classic country players like Jimmy Capps and Leon Rhodes, I'd say yes, they have a tone similar to some jazz guitarists.

What fascinates me is how players who are looking for a certain "tone" will often go through dozens of guitars to find the one guitar with the right "tone". Of course, the obvious question is..."Why did you play...and then buy all those other guitars that (obviously) didn't have "that tone"?

Reading the Forum for any length of time, one might almost come to the conclusion that tone only does one of two things. It either gives you "bragging rights", or an "excuse".

John Roche · Post by **John Roche** » 3 Feb 2008 3:09 pm

what do any of us know what tone is, is there a benchmark that we can judge it by or do we judge it by the sound that the Big E gets or any of the other top players. How do we know when we have found it?.
It's an elusive butterfly, what sounds great one second will sound bad the next .we fiddle with knobs to suit our mood, we are never happy with our tone there is alway better tone somewhere be it in our hands or from the amp or where ever, has Buddy Emmons got great tone? some of his LP's I have are not what I would call great tone, great playing but not great tone. Maybe we could ask him why his TONE has changed over the years.
If someone can put up a sound clip of what TONE sounds like then we all can go home and work on it....not possible is it ????

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 3 Feb 2008 3:25 pm

The bought many guitars, because that was
what was available when they wanted a change.
They kept getting closer but no cigar.