Carter vs Black Jack Custom

[Antolina]

I'll chime in on this subject one last time. First let me say I have nothing against either of the discused steel guitars. I'm sure they're both well made and judging from the many positive posts, both are fine guitars. My issue with Carter is the attitude with which they deal with complaints concerning the "Starter" models. Rather than be redundant, I'll simply quote Mr. Quackenbush.

I'm tired of hearing " Well it's only a student model, what do you expect ?" ....I expect a playable model that will work properly !!!Jim

Had this happened only once, I might believe it was an isolated circumstance. However, I've heard the same complaint several times in the last few months. That's a cause for concern. That's my point and my only point.

Now it's time to get back to music.

[Tony Prior]

RC, did you have a personal EXPERIENCE with the Carter Starter /Carter or are you just going by what a few have said and in many cases the same few ?

keep in mind that there are more Carter Starters out there than probably a few PRO brands all added together.

Is it not noticed that in these so called Carter threads the same people show up talking the same issue they had perhaps several years ago ?

Perhaps we need to take a flash back in time and look at the way each of us handled a situation 2 or 3 years ago and never let up on it.

When I was 20 I did some dumb things, I guess there are those that will judge my entire life on those dumb things. So be it.

[Antolina]

Tony,

With all due respect, I've put this issue to rest. I have no interest in pursuing the matter any further. I had a point to make and made it. I have nothing more to add.

rc

[Joseph Barcus]

well my two cents is, get a good one from the start something that holds its value. I have seen lots of folks here in my area get carters only to find the parts falling off them pedals breaking and so on but again you get what you pay for. I have a carter here right now a guy came to me and sold his whole package out to me gave up pretty quick. sure they have all the knees and pedals that most pros do, but they wont set still you apply a knee you better have it tied down or you will be going all over the floor learing how to chase it and not play it. spend 2000.00 right up front for a better one and then if you decide its not for you, you can still recover 95% of your money where as you wont on the student models, good luck on your hunt

[Alan James]

RC, I have a question for you.

Are you speaking from first hand experience or are you just spouting your opinion based on second hand information and innuendo?

You know, the get a rope and string the varmints up type stuff we see on the forum with alarming regularity.

Of course you are free to post your opinions. However, I might suggest that if you don't have first hand experience, then maybe you should defer to those that do, be it good or bad.

I doubt you are helping Stephen Wells by giving him second hand information. It is clear, however, that you are trying to promote your own righteous agenda.

[Joseph Barcus]

I have had run in with carter guitars and two days later I got rid of what I had and never wanted another. bud knows alot about guitars and you will find his name on most older msa guitars. but I dont care to get into what I went though with the bunch again this is about getting started from scratch. buy pro, buy pro, buy pro is all I have to say

[Joseph Barcus]

Dana Flood out of bangor maine treats a person how they should be treated, he is also a builder for emmons guitars, and also behind the electronics for the fender steel amp. I drove all the way to maine to pick up what I have now and never have been sorry about it. but Im saying this because im a emmons man all the way to the bone

[richard burton]

I don't know why there is all this negativity towards Carter steels, I played a Starter and in my opinion it was an excellent student steel.

[Antolina]

RC, It is clear, however, that you are trying to promote your own righteous agenda.

What's the matter Alan, can't you read?

[Marc Jenkins]

I'm confused too by the animosity. I've found Ann a tiny bit prickly on the phone, but people sometimes find me that way too!

My Starter toured across Canada with me. Did it stay in tune like a modern, pro steel? Of course not! Did it sound good? Absolutely! I recorded a few tracks with it, and listening back a year and a half later, they sound pretty good, although my Sho~Bud sounds better, obviously.

I'm pretty sure my Pro 1 doesn't stay in tune like a modern steel either, for that matter, but the last thing I'd want is a modern steel. Tuning more often doesn't bother me much when the tone is this hot. (I do play a Bigsby-equipped Gretsch too, for that matter!)

[Chris LeDrew]

Joseph, I agree with you about Dana Flood. I bought a Pro 1 from him two years ago and it was a seamless transaction. He even sent me a new pack of nylon tuners just at the slightest mention that one or two might be a bit worn.

Service has to be priority # 1 in any business, and I have to be honest and say that it has not always been the case in my experience with the steel world. I'm not sure if it's because of its exclusivity or what. I haven't quite figured it out. But I will say that at least half the reason why I eventually laid down the cash for a Blackjack was my experience with the manufacturer. When I was in Dallas last March, I entered the rooms of many manufacturers. I sat down at a lot of brands and checked them out. Few dealers or builders even approached me to ask what I thought. I guess they assumed (wrongly) that I wasn't actively looking for a new steel. I was strolling by the Jackson booth and stopped to take a look. Right away Dawn approached me, as did David. Within 10 minutes they had me whisked upstairs to their suite and behind a Blackjack, asking me what I thought about the pedal action, tone, comfort level, etc. I felt at home there, comfortable and respected as a potential buyer. This is what sells steels and makes loyal customers. Of all the builders I met in Dallas and St. Louis, nobody reached out to me like this. I mentioned to one dealer at a convention that I owned their brand of steel and quite liked it. Right away he asked whether I bought it new or used. Great sales technique: intimidate the buyer. Right away I knew I'd never buy a new one from them.

It's the old saying: you may forget what people say, you may forget what people do. But you never forget how they made you feel. You can't put an expiry date on a bad experience.

I think it's important to relay experiences on the steel forum, good and bad. A bad experience is no less valid than a good one, and sometimes even more important for learning purposes.

[Dan Meadows]

It's troubling when a person has such a passion for something like a steel guitar or any instrument for that matter and the builder, whoever it may be, gets nasty acting in any way over a question, problem or for an inquiry of parts. There is never an excuse for a bad
attitude directed toward a caller. An owner or manager of a company should be mature enough to handle
an inquiry or problem to the satisfaction of all involved and at least be kind in their dealings with the person calling. I was embarrased very badly, in person, while dealing with an instrument builder and I
don't even believe they realized it which is sad I suppose. I knew nothing about this particular instrument but had a great passion for it and wanted to buy one of their models to start on. I was given the impression by this person that every question I
asked was ignorant and I wasn't of any importance to this builder. I arrived at their shop very happy in anticipation of owning the one instrument I love the most. I almost ran to my car feeling embarrased. I can't think of a more appropriate word as to how I felt while I was there. I was given the strong impression that I didn't matter to this person and not knowing what to ask about the instrument I could have crawled into a hole having felt about 2 inches
tall. I got no real help from this person at all
and being a beginner and wanting them to interact in conversation with me wasn't going to happen. This person basically stood there as I looked an instrument over and offered little words. Little to no help except to make me feel completely ignorant with the tone and body language I got from them.
I could never buy an instrument from this builder because I wouldn't want to ever have to call them about anything. I was torn down by that one visit.
I have since contacted one other builder by e-mail and their answer to me was short but you could sense the kindness and appreciation in their reply. They are on my short buy list for certain and it only took that kind reply. Both builders build a top notch instrument I'm certain. But one has learned that even the smallest display of kindness and appreciation (that they were contacted) could turn in to a potential sale. I love giving business to those who care. It makes you care about them in return.

Dan

[Chris LeDrew]

Dan, I applaud your courage in telling your story here. There is too much of this inexcusable behaviour going on in the steel world to let it slide. I sincerely hope that you have found a dealer/manufacturer that will respect and help you in your search for the right guitar.

[Ray Uhl]

I must say I have been a die hard Emmons push/pull owner for over 40 years and will never change my love for their sound. However, when I purchased my Carter D10 I tried my hardest to hate that instrument. It was not an Emmons. You guessed it, I now play it exclusively in all tempertures and it stays in tune very well, light to pack, and just a good all around guitar. It has the all pull advantages, and a good tone.

As I would try different guitars and saying they don't quite have that Emmons sound my wife said, "If you want an Emmons sound, buy and Emmons." How true, buy what sounds good to you. I could go on with endless comparisons, likes and dislikes, but that's with any guitar. We steel players are always seeking that sound. Carter makes a good guitar.

[John Drury]

Guys,

Be right back, after reading about all this dealer abuse that seems to be so rampant in this industry, I'll need to go and pour a stiff one.

[Tony Prior]

It's not a question of telling a story, the issue is clear that there are those here in these threads that have had no dealings with said vendor and are not speaking from experience, they are speaking from someone elses story which may or may not be quite accurate.

Be honest, be respectful, give a timeline .

Maybe some of you can't forget that your experience happened but at least be honest and state when it occured instead of allowing folks to assume it may have been yesterday.

We can all look back in time and find someing that we didn't do quite right .

[Erv Niehaus]

I like to do business with people I like.

I only dealt with Carter one time and because of Ann Fabian, I won't be doing any more business with them again.
Take it for what it's worth!

[Antolina]

Tony,

There's little doubt that your posts are personal jabs at me. Do your snide comments infer that one should not form opinions based on reports from others... or refrain from reporting those opinions to others? Up till now I've been under the impression that forums such as these are the vehicles for such discussions.

For your information, I've been at the steel since 1971. I've owned and played Fender, MSA, sho~bud and Marrs guitars. Never once in all those years have I heard the volume of complaints currently compiled on this forum about a single vendor. I have earned the right to form opinions and disperse said opinions as I see fit.

I'm getting a little tired of you trying to turn this thread into something personal while assuming the temerity to suggest how I or anyone else should post opinions. I appreciate your loyalties to your favorite vendor. However when you try to jam those loyalties down my throat, I get my back up. You have no idea where I get my information or how I interpret said information.

Do the forum a favor and stick to the subject at hand... which is not me.

[Joseph Barcus]

Tony,
I have not only had one run in with the carter company but two. no second hand story here I will share one with you and the forum.
A few years back I bought a carter guitar from someone right here in this thread that is a carter fan, anyways I payed 1650.00 for it, it was only a few months old and was told that the service came with the guitar, that I thought was nice. I called carter guitar transfered the name on the guitar. a few weeeks later it started breaking strings mainly strings 3 & 10 yes thats right 10, then when I would try to replace them in most cases it took three strings to get one not to break. I checked for the changer with a q tip nothing I could find, I called carter and got ANN yes her. she would not let me talk to John or Bud only to tell me that I did not know how to put strings on. I said that I wanted to send the guitar back for maybe a new changer or new fingers for 3 & 10 NO NO she said you dont know what you are doing is all I heard. I even said ok sale me the fingers and I will fix it myself, she said no because that would break the warrenty on it LOL yeah right. then I said to her that the material they were using in the changer was poor and she went off on me and I went off on her and so on. the band I was playing for said that I was not getting paid to set there all night and change stings so they fired me or said they needed to let me go until I got a better guitar. well blah blah blah and so on. so I sold the very guitar that I paid 1650.00 for for right around 1000.00 just to get it out of my house. thats just one story and that was the last one, the one case before this one is even worse and I wont go there I think I said enough. did the guita play good? yes played fine. tone was dead in hughey land but im sure that was the pickup. was it light yes it was nice to carry. was the service good from the factory, NO NO NO it was not. My emmons has not ever broke a string I even tried to leave them on for a long time just to wait and see when it was going to happen they just got old is all but none of them ever broke. I needed a extra knee kit for my emmons called Dana Flood had one in no time. no hassle, If they would send Ann home and just let her feed her fish and stay off the phone out of peoples ears the sales would go way up im sure. she is a big negative for carter guitars.

[Rex Thomas]

Erv, Chris, Wild Bill;
Though we shouldn't judge by 1st impressions, they are hard to shake, aren't they?
So, don't buy where you're gonna get hurt.
In the early days, David Jackson was an absolute gent to me, & I'm sure he still is present day.
Aw, get chee one of those Blackjack customs. That new/updated Extreme spins my beanie. No card symbols on the front please. Have nothing against card symbols, just not on the front for me, neck ok, but I think the Jackson "lyre" fretboards look cool.
Just for grins, I inquired about a Jackson steel. Dawn definitely didn't hurt me, matter of fact she was a pleasure to talk steel with just like papaw.
Hey, do what works.
FWIW.

[Al Terhune]

No card symbols on the front please. Have nothing against card symbols, just not on the front for me,

That's the best part, Rex!

Funny how that works. But that *%#@!% Eric West and I will always come to blows with Peavey's logo, too.

[Tony Prior]

RC I don't know what you are talking about, I am not jabbing at anyone and I am not sure why you would come to the conclusion that I am talking about you. You are correct in that I did ask you earlier if you had a personal experience with this vendor. So am I correct that you are free to use someone elses post as a spring board to negative statements without qualifying it but I am not allowed to ask what the issue was ?

here's what you wrote:

I've heard quite a bit of good things about the Blackjack. Wouldn't give a nickel for a Carter if only because of their poor reputation.

I see that as pretty misleading and fair game to challenge on an open forum.


Joe, regarding you personal experiences you don't need to justify to me, I have no reason to doubt what you write. Regarding buying an instrument and being told it came with SERVICE, that sounds a bit odd. I would have checked with the vendor before the purchase to learn if a used guitar still has a transferable warranty.Thats just me.

Look, there are plenty of folks that have issues with lots of different things, me included ,my only point is that if someone decides to post along in a "bash" someone thread they should at least give a little definition to the issue at hand and WHY they are replying instead of running with something that may or may not be legit.

My opinion is that if someone did not have a personal experience with a vendor they should be reserved in offering an opinion about that vendors customer service and if they do they should qualify that they personally have had no dealings with said vendor.

thats all I am saying.

" I heard so and so is a scum bag but truthfully I never met or talked to the guy " is totally different than " That guy is a scum bag ".


This isn't my forum, you guys are free to type whatever you want whenever you want. And if I decide to post in the same thread am I not also permitted to offer an opinion or challenge a statement ?

It appears not.

I may also choose not to post which is bcoming the normal lately anyway other than these anti threads where I may feel like speaking of MY positive experiences with my vendor friends.

[Dickie Whitley]

I think it would be good if everyone just calmed down a bit and not take everything so personal. I don't want to lose a single poster on this forum. I enjoy the wideness of opinions and information that are available on this forum. I've learned more about steel guitar in one year on this forum than the 10 years preceding my start. If you've had a bad experience with a vendor and have tried reasonably working with them to get it fixed and can't to your satisfaction, then yes, I think you should let others know about it. But try to state it in a clear manner without letting your emotions escalate it beyond what it factually is (yes, sometimes hard to do I admit). I think the forum needs to be the last resort not the first.

Some have stated that "dirty laundry" should not be aired here, I disagree. If there is a problem with a vendor, it indeed needs to be discussed here with the hope of a reasonable settlement. We need to reply with questions of what happened and what was done to try to resolve the situation. The discovery of factual evidence and reasonable solutions offered should be the key to these topics.

With all due respect to everyone here, bringing up old wounds or simply saying "I've never had a problem with them" and the like doesn't get these things resolved and more than likely brings more flaming.

Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.

[Antolina]

Tony,

After reading through this thread, is there any remaing doubt that Carter has service related problems? I made the statement "Wouldn't give a nickel for a Carter because of their poor reputation"... and I stand by it. I don't need to spend good money to put up with Ann's attitude and the resulting poor service just so I can say, I experienced it. The manner in which Mr. Barcus was treated wasn't merely poor service. It was a disgraceful and disrespectful way to treat any customer. Put that together with the other negative posts and few would disagree, I have a formed a valid opinion.

As we are concerned, I started this whole debacle with my opening comment and have been taken to task for it. In as much as some negative posts were directed at me, it sure felt like I was being singled out for stating the obvious. If, though any misunderstanding, I was out of line with you, in any way, you have my honest and sincere apology.

I would like to think that the powers that be over there in Carter Land have taken note of this thread and might take steps to rectify those glaring problems. If that happens, everybody wins.

[Tony Prior]

RC not to worry, I do not take these things personal and you shouldn't either. It's like sharing conversation with a Beer except we are not sitting at the same table and maybe not even drinking a Beer !

it's an open forum all opinions are subject to agreement or disagreement.

t