Carter D-12 as a starter guitar??

Gary Shreve · Post by **Gary Shreve** » 25 Jan 2008 7:53 pm

I'm still searching for my first steel guitar. It's a lot of fun watching the for sale column here on the forum, wishing I had an unlimited amount of money.

I found a guy near me who has his father's D-12 steel for sale. He hasn't firmly set a price, yet...but has indicated he could get around 2 grand for it. I suspect he'd want to be close to that number, anyway.

From what I know, it's a Carter D-12. For my first steel, I've been intrigued by Mark Van Allen's GFI Ultra SD-10, and of course, those Red GFI D-10's that were for sale. Rumor has it that black guitars sound better, so since I won't have any money left after I buy a guitar to pay my light bill...I figure color won't matter.

My question to the masses is would a D-12 be too much for a beginner? I'm not worried so much about the price, I see what the new ones bring from Carter, and even if I changed my mind, I probably wouldn't lose my shirt. I'm hoping a beginner learning on a D-12 isn't along the same lines as a 15 year-old learning to drive in an 18-wheeler tanker truck.

Thanks in advance for your help. BTW...I'm also impressed by the Rain's guitars, too. And...they're right here in town...

Marvin Born · Post by **Marvin Born** » 25 Jan 2008 10:28 pm

I will offer my opinion since I did start on a D12 about 15 months ago.

I assume this is an extended E9. I had no problem ignoring strings 11 and 12, and using only the first 10. (For a while I even ignored strings 7 and 9 also.) I used the fret markers to identify strings 5 and 6, then used that as a reference point. Always count up from string one for everything and it is just like a D10. Some people suggest removing the extra strings, and I am sure that will help also, but you still have the weight.

C6 was another story; having both the G and D string on top confused me, since all the string number are shifted by one.

The main problem with the D12 was it was very heavy. It was difficult for me to move around, especially if you have to carry it up the basement stairs every time you want to take it for a lesson or something. I actually put the pedal board and legs in the case after I got it in the car. After four months, I bought an Emmons D10 from a forum member and sold the D12 for what I paid for it. But it took a while.

I believe that D12 steels maybe lower valued than D10's. At least they don't seem to sell as quickly as the D10. So someone else who is a Carter player/ owner can comment on the cost and the weight difference regarding Carters.

I would suggest you get a pro level guitar with at least 8 and 5. Either used or new. You might consider looking at the Zum beginner guitar and the Blackjack by Jackson. They are in you price range and are fine instruments.

Marvin

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 25 Jan 2008 10:40 pm

Gary,
You live in maybe the best place in the world to check out pedal steels. I would head over to Rains and pay a visit to Gary Carpenter. Also head over to Carter and meet Ann and John. Try those guitars out for yourself and see what you think. Go to some gigs with great steel players and ask them about there steels. GFI, Star, MSA and a couple other builders I can't think of at the moment are right near you. You are not going to get good advice on the forum because if you mention anything about how one guitar actually is better than another guitar us internet guys get our panties in a wad.
With that I would not personally bother with a D12 unless you have a particular use for it. They are hard to resell and it will be confusing enough trying to sort out 10 strings instead of 24.

Whatever you get have fun and practice more !

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 26 Jan 2008 4:01 am

S-10D, 3 & 5. Unless your a seasoned player, a 12 string will be a problem usually. A D-12 even more. I recommend for beginners or newbies, a single 10 string with at least 3 pedals and 4(5) knee levers. I've been at it since 71' and I wouldn't buy a D-12 even now. Everythings on a universal-12 anyway(S-12U). Just my little .02! Good luck.

Dennis Wood · Post by **Dennis Wood** » 26 Jan 2008 7:00 am

I started out on a u-12 on the advise of my friend Bill Stroud. I had no problems with the 12 strings 'cause I didn't know any thing else. A d-12 Would be a lot of guitar to start out on, but you can't learn it all in one week.
The only downside, in my opinion is weight and size of the guitar. Now when i play a 10string with 3 & 4 I really miss all the changes on the u-12. A d/u-12 may seem intimidating because of all the pedals and knees but you dont have to use them at first and trust me, if you practice and progress, you will use them.

Gary Walker · Post by **Gary Walker** » 27 Jan 2008 11:28 pm

I have been a beginner for 45 years and don't think it's too much at all.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 28 Jan 2008 10:42 am

The extra strings on a D12 have more to do with the type of music you intend to play than anything else. For standard country and western, you don't need the extra strings. Unless the D12 is a price you can't refuse, you don't need it. And the extra complexity and weight are things a beginner can well do without.

Most of us who like the extra strings want them for other genres, mainly rock and blues, but maybe also for jazz and classical. But most of us learned on an S10 or D10, and moved to 12 strings later. If you are interested in those kinds of music, you could start on a D12, if you can get one for a bargain price. But you could just as well start on a low-cost S10 or D10.

Gary Shreve · Post by **Gary Shreve** » 28 Jan 2008 6:45 pm

Thanks, guys. I appreciate all of the wisdom that is available apparently at the drop of a hat...or at the asking of a question. After all of the responses...particularly those that reminded me of the weight, I'm leaning in favor of not pursuing this guitar. My music practice room is upstairs, where all the other equipment is.

So, I'm back to waiting on a good deal on a used D-10 or SD-10. I've been spending too much time on the GFI and Rains websites... hmmmm... Steve Lamb, please save me!!!

Thanks again, guys, for the 'gentle nudging'.

John Fabian · Post by **John Fabian** » 30 Jan 2008 10:16 am

The weight of our D-12 is less than most manufacturers' d-10's. 42 Lbs out of the case and 63 Lbs in the case.

Robbie Daniels · Post by **Robbie Daniels** » 31 Jan 2008 7:40 am

I have been playing double 12's since 1968 and wouldn't have it any other way. 12 strings offer more extensions, but if one wants to learn on less strings just don't string them all up and add the other string or strings as you progress.

Gary Shreve · Post by **Gary Shreve** » 31 Jan 2008 7:50 am

After more correspondence with the owner of this D-12, he's asking 2000 dollars even for this steel. I haven't seen it, yet. The only pictures he's sent me are the ones I've already seen of the D-12 on
Carter's website.

Man, that's a lot of strings. Of course, I think that of even an S-10. Guess I've got some more thinking to do. Maybe I could talk him into selling me the steel AND the pack-a-seat for that. That wouldn't be so bad of a deal... hmmmmm.. need more coffee...

Paddy Long · Post by **Paddy Long** » 31 Jan 2008 7:56 pm

Gary if you can get it for that price I would grab it while it is still available!

Rex Myers · Post by **Rex Myers** » 9 Feb 2008 7:16 pm

I would only consider the 11th and 12th extra strings if you have only ever played a 10 string.
The very first Guitar a started learning on was a single 10 string and with in that same year switched to a Universal 12 string and to me it wasn't hard at all even at that point to convert to a few new things
So learning on a 12 string isn't a problem in its self I think the real question here is do you want to learn multiple tunings ? Then still you either would choose a double 10 or a single 12 universal
Being a single 12 uni player myself have thought about a double 12 but it hurts my brain to think about all the possible tunings
A double 12 is a lot of guitar for learning!
My 2 cents or was that 3 and 1/2cents or maybe no cents at all
Good luck

Gary Shreve · Post by **Gary Shreve** » 9 Feb 2008 7:57 pm

I appreciate all of the great ideas and advice so freely shared here. The D-12 was appealing because of 1, the price, and 2, it was local and wouldn't have to be shipped.

I decided to buy another guitar. I now have a Pedalmaster SD-10. It has a standard setup and plays and sounds great in the hands of Steve Lamb, my ignorance compensation manager for the next several years. He's a real gem.

I can honestly say that the brand wasn't as much a factor as was the "monster" factor. Two necks, all those pedals, and 24 strings... I chickened out. And, the price was right on the SD-10. AND...as luck would have it, it was local.

First lesson today...and I'm as hooked now as I ever thought I might be. Couldn't be happier. Thanks.

Antolina · Post by **Antolina** » 10 Feb 2008 4:59 am

David Doggett wrote:The extra strings on a D12 have more to do with the type of music you intend to play than anything else. For standard country and western, you don't need the extra strings. Unless the D12 is a price you can't refuse, you don't need it. And the extra complexity and weight are things a beginner can well do without.

Most of us who like the extra strings want them for other genres, mainly rock and blues, but maybe also for jazz and classical. But most of us learned on an S10 or D10, and moved to 12 strings later. If you are interested in those kinds of music, you could start on a D12, if you can get one for a bargain price. But you could just as well start on a low-cost S10 or D10.

I'd pay close attention to anything David says concerning steel guitars.

Rex Myers · Post by **Rex Myers** » 10 Feb 2008 8:36 am

Congrats Gary,
On your choice I did forget to mention there is a lot more material,Tab,Etc available for learning, practicing the 10 String PSGs
Good luck!

Ronnie Boettcher · Post by **Ronnie Boettcher** » 10 Feb 2008 9:31 am

Here is my 2 cents. Years ago, being very curious to the steel, I found a used, fender 400 . The price was great Had no idea about playing one. I diddled around with it, and 4 months later I wanted a real 10 string. I was talking to LLoyd Green at a session in Nashville, and he was a real salesman, with all the right advice. I did buy the LDG, and to this day still play it. I don't have much desire to play C6, so I am a happy camper with just the E9 tuning. If you just want to do country, with the standard Nashville sounds, Think of buying a S10, or SD10, with at least a 3/4 setup. Buy a unit above the entry level ones, so if you ever want to upgrade, your cash outlay, and ease of selling, can be easy. Good luck.

Eugene Cole · Post by **Eugene Cole** » 10 Feb 2008 9:57 pm

I do not think that any good PSG is too-much for a beginner. Having said this I must add a few caveats and disclaimers.

A guitar which is too-heavy can be too-much. If you live in a 7th floor walk-up a baritone ukulele might be too-much guitar.

One can always omit a string or two. I have put 8-string tunings on my 10-string guitars in the past.

The thing that matters is having a good teacher and/or good learning materials.

I would say that starting with a D12 would be more akin to a 15 year old learning to drive in a car that had power windows, power mirrors and power door-locks than to learning in an 18 wheeler.

My first PSG was a D10 MSA (which I still own but is not my primary PSG). Knowing what I know now I would rather had a U12 for a first guitar. But I was a College student at the time and already knew from other instruments that a poor first-instrument is a bad choice regardless of the instrument. And I had a College students budget to go with my lack of experience with these instruments.

If you can swing it a Universal or a doubleneck would be better than a non-universal single-neck. BUT! Any good quality instrument will probably be a good starter-guitar. I think that a U12 is as good a choice if not a better choice than a D10 for a first PSG.

I can not address what the market value of various guitars are because I do not follow this; so I shall defer to others about this particular D12.

However I would think that $1000 to $1500 should get you a pre-1985 MSA D10 with an 8+4 setup (or a similar quality instrument) if you are willing to wait a month or two.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 11 Feb 2008 12:46 am

For whatever its worth, I learned on the U-12 shown in my avatar. I originally thought that I could take 2 strings off and make it a standard E9 but I never did.

However I think Gary made the right choice. An S-10 is a lot easier to deal with than a D-12.

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