Tone is in the hands??????

Terry Sneed · Post by **Terry Sneed** » 25 Jan 2008 1:38 pm

TONE"""" EVERYTHING THAT YOU PLAY THRU-OR WITH WILL AND CAN CHANGE YOUR TONE SO THEREFORE ANYONE THAT DOES THINK THAT TONE IS TOTALLY IN THE HANDS HE IS TOTALLY WRONG EACH AND EVERY ITEM IN THE CHAIN FROM THE ELECTRICITY TO YOUR OWN THOUGHTS, DOES AND WILL CHANGE YOUR FINAL TONE, IS MY PERSONAL OPINION

I agree Tommy!

To all of you (tone is in the hands) belivers> I was just quoting what Bobbe said in his last news-letter, or email. And I happen to agree with him.
I'm tickled pink that one of the worlds best steel guitar players, has told it like it is concerning the, "tone is in the hands" philosophy!

Terry

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 25 Jan 2008 2:05 pm

So, in other words, what he's saying (and what you're saying), is that everyone who plays the same brand and type of guitar has exactly the same tone?

Gosh! I didn't realize that!!!

No wonder we have thousands of guys playing out there with exactly the same tone as Buddy Emmons!

And no wonder we have thousands of players out there with exactly the same tone as Lloyd Green!

However, we must also have about 1,000 players with exactly the same tone as Jerry Garcia.

And lastly, there must only be about 100 players out there with exactly the same tone as Paul Franklin!

Gee, each guitar only has one tone. That makes everything so easy. Thanks for sharing.

Any more "gems of wisdom" you "tone experts" would like to throw our way?

John Roche · Post by **John Roche** » 25 Jan 2008 2:34 pm

their guitar has the tone, but the player has the ability to bring out the tone,....

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 25 Jan 2008 2:49 pm

So, a player with no ability has no tone when he plays?

John Roche · Post by **John Roche** » 25 Jan 2008 2:55 pm

Correcto mi amigo

Alan Miller · Post by **Alan Miller** » 25 Jan 2008 3:28 pm

Whilst flogging a dead horse the large wooden implement is definately in the hands.

James Collett · Post by **James Collett** » 25 Jan 2008 5:20 pm

Tone is, like Tommy said, influenced by everything involved in the sound that's heard- a large part of that is the guitar, but a large (edited for "if not larger") part is the hands. Bar pressure, how the bar is held, pick thickness, pick angle, pick snugness, the position with which your picking hand is held, how fat your fingers are, how much body mass you have

Just kidding. But I think its rediculous to narrow tone down to one thing.

Adam Goodale · Post by **Adam Goodale** » 26 Jan 2008 2:01 am

my tone sucks no matter what amp/effects that i try to play through, but i remember seeing jimmy day just before he passed, at a show in liberty hill, tx. him and my grandpa were talking about tone, and he held up his bar and this is where the tone is. he said it's not in the fingers. my grandpa plays bass, not steel, but had done a lot of shows with jimmy in the 90's. but, im not tryin to argue with no one. just food for thought i guess.

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 26 Jan 2008 3:20 am

Hey,

didn't you guys see that pedal Bob posted?!?!?

TONE IS IN THE FEET!!!!!

Dan

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 26 Jan 2008 5:42 am

""""TONE"""" EVERYTHING THAT YOU PLAY THRU-OR WITH WILL AND CAN CHANGE YOUR TONE SO THEREFORE ANYONE THAT DOES THINK THAT TONE IS TOTALLY IN THE HANDS HE IS TOTALLY WRONG EACH AND EVERY ITEM IN THE CHAIN FROM THE ELECTRICITY TO YOUR OWN THOUGHTS, DOES AND WILL CHANGE YOUR FINAL TONE, IS MY PERSONAL OPINION

Ok..........................

Then how come Paul F., Bobbe S., and Reese A. can take an old jacked up Red Baron, or Carter Starter each beat up with microphonic pickups, and half tone cabinet drop, and make them sound sweet and smooth as butter?

Yeah.............

Tone truly is in the hands.

And feet.

Tone is in the hands??????

Indeed!

Much more than any equipment

Randy Beavers · Post by **Randy Beavers** » 26 Jan 2008 7:02 am

I wish this thread would hurry up and fizzle out, so we can start another one.

I have a question: I think we agree most new guitars have reliable mechanics and a similar frequency response. Most resemble each other in aesthetics and so on.
Given that those things are fairly equal which is more important to you, comfort or tone?

A: A guitar that sounds good enough for you and feels as comfortable as your recliner to set behind and play. Will handle what ever setup you want to put on it.

B: A guitar that has killer tone but is uncomfortable for one reason or another, like the pedals being too stiff, or the knee levers have too much travel. Add to that, maybe the guitar will not handle the changes you want on it.

Papa Joe Pollick · Post by **Papa Joe Pollick** » 26 Jan 2008 10:08 am

I actualy don't nead a definition of the "word".I was trying to prove a point with the question.And the point has been proved.Contrary to Bobbe's opinion the subject is very subjective.We are ALL biased and see and hear things in a different way.The responces on this thread show that clearly.If there was but
"one" answer then there would be only one insturment,one amp,one of anything in the set up.All the rest would not have good tone.As far as I'm concerned,I can't recall ever hearing a steel guitar with "bad" tone.Some more to my pleasing than others,but still pleasing never the less.
I do have further thoughts on this but I have quit and go take my meds.

PJ

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 26 Jan 2008 10:32 am

Tone in the hands??? The only times my hands make any tones are when my knuckles crack or when they're clapping.

The hands can only do what the owner tells them to do.

I think that the tone (or timbre) is generated by the guitar and its components. How the strings are plucked can bring out the good or the bad qualities of the instrument.

I think some people have the ability to bring out the good qualities of any guitar, through their plucking technique. Is that's what is meant by tone being "in the hands", then I agree.

Lee, from South Texas

admin · Post by **b0b** » 26 Jan 2008 10:56 am

This is a slow load (don't try it without a broadband connection), but it's a lot of fun:
http://www.hughes-and-kettner.com/wisdoms.php

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 26 Jan 2008 12:24 pm

I love Randy's question. For me, the inherent tone or timbre of a classic Push-Pull or Bud is very inspiring, but I'm even more inspired by the modern changes and ease of playing I get from my Zum. And the inherent tone or timbre of that guitar is close enough to satisfy. Me anyway.
I understand the joys of playing a classic style on a somewhat limited or stiff or clunky instrument, but for me the ability to play in tune, easily change and adjust copedant, and access modern changes trumps the classic vibe. Along with that I want as good of "tone" as I can find in a guitar, modified by as good of an amplification chain as I can find/afford, to be inspired to play the best I am able.
As usual I think a lot of folks are getting lost in the semantics here. What you hear coming off a stage, say at the ISGC, is not the "tone" of the guitar, or the "tone" inherent in "the hands", but a combination of skill, experience, taste, and equipment. The sound of a performance is not just the tone of the guitar. And yes, any good player can sound "like themselves" on almost any instrument, but there are good reasons why one player chooses a 60's fatback over a similar vintage Fender, or a Modern all-pull over a vintage Emmons.
Come on, guys.

Gary Lee Gimble · Post by **Gary Lee Gimble** » 26 Jan 2008 3:29 pm

Referencing R Beavers option "B," reminds me of a conversation I had with Buddy Charleton a while ago. He basically said that a push pull with all its alleged inherent issues, is a guitar that makes you play. For those who may remember, Buddy was sporting a Zumsteel in St Louis at his last appearance. A couple of year's prior in St Louis, he played his push pull. I vaguely remember Herb Steiner saying during Buddy's set, "Now thats what I'm talking about!" In fact, many folks were talking and raving about Buddy's tone. Two different performances, two different guitars, two different sounds. Did his "hands" change in between those two performances? Did is gear DeJour dictate the final outcome? Anyway, I took B C's advise and kept my push pull but I select Beaver's option A cause I need all the help I can get as my musical mind & hands mature.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 26 Jan 2008 3:47 pm

Conversely, consider that Buddy Charleton, Lloyd Green, and Pete Drake all played Sho~Buds for many years. I think you'd find it hard to convince anyone that didn't know that they all played the same brand of guitar. Their tones (and not just their styles) were, at many times, as different as night and day.

John Fabian · Post by **John Fabian** » 26 Jan 2008 6:52 pm

Tone is in the ear and mind of the listener.

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 26 Jan 2008 7:49 pm

Amen to that John.
Tone is so much in the ear of the beholder.
I love the tone of Bob Lucier on his Fulawka
Ditto Steve Smith on his Carter
Lloyd Green's tone is pure Heaven whether he plays his ShoBud or JCH

Four different guitars. All with tone to the bone.
So I'm with Randy Beavers. Let's start a new thread about something different.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 26 Jan 2008 10:59 pm

Donny, thats because they played three different Sho-Bud models. All three with inherently different tones. Sho-Bud owners recognize theses different model tones. The permanent's inherent tone was different from the Professional. I just played one of Hal Rugg's Sho-Buds.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 26 Jan 2008 11:12 pm

Curt, your post is another perfect example of mistaking skill and *style* for "tone".

Playing well and sounding good on a bad instrument has zero to do with "tone". That player will not have the same "tone" on a "good" instrument - just his own style and technique.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 27 Jan 2008 7:24 am

Kevin Hatton wrote:Donny, thats because they played three different Sho-Bud models.

That doesn't wash, Kevin, I know the difference. (I've actually seen them play.) Most Sho~Bud players started out on a permanent, then went to a fingertip, and then to one of the "Pro" models. Shucks, in my years of playing I've had a half dozen players tell me they really liked the Emmons guitar sound from the first time they heard it, on Steel Guitar Jazz...and that album was done on a Sho~Bud! I've also had players tell me the same thing about ZB's. They've said that Tom Brumley made the ZB famous on "Together Again"...and that was done on a Fender!

There are a few times it may be possible to tell (by the sound) what guitar a player is using, but I don't believe it can be done consistently by anyone.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 27 Jan 2008 7:30 am

Consistently, no - but it doesn't change the fact that guitars DO each have an inherent tone. You can't pick out 6-string guitars always either, but if you play a bunch side-by side (or play a Variax, which models the sound of various 6-string electrics) you can recognize the difference.

Modern steels are much harder to tell apart as makers seem to be trying to all aim for one "steel tone" - which I think is a huge mistake, but then I come from a different world where good tone is as critical as good chops, and "distinctive" tone is an asset, not a liability.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 27 Jan 2008 8:00 am

Take anything out of the chain..
and there ain't no sound.

The best possible timbre to YOUR OWN MIND
is the product of your hands attack,
on the strings of your choice,
on a steel with resonances of your choice,
Through the cables, pedal, boxes and amp
OF YOUR CHOICE.

Tone is in the mind to material nexus.
and THAT is TOTALLY individual.

If your hands don't work, no tone.

If they work particularly well
they can get the closest tone,
that your equipment choices will allow,
to your personal ideal.. of the moment.

If we fall in love with a particular players
'sound'
whether he changes instruments or not
it is a function of HIS CUMULATIVE CHOICES,

and striving to get closest to HIS IDEAL,
regardless of the equipment available
at any given time.

After that it is often a case of the producer
ordering the engineer to 'make it sound like
the last hit record he played on'.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 27 Jan 2008 9:28 am

Jim Sliff wrote:Modern steels are much harder to tell apart as makers seem to be trying to all aim for one "steel tone" - which I think is a huge mistake, but then I come from a different world where good tone is as critical as good chops, and "distinctive" tone is an asset, not a liability.

Guitarists have the luxury of being able to carry several instruments, switching to a different one as the song requires. I saw a Tom Petty concert once, where he and his lead guitarist played different guitars on every song. While that's extreme, it's not unusual for lead guitarists to carry 3 or 4 guitars to a gig.

The pedal steel has different requirements. First of all, it typically costs as much as the lead guitarists whole arsenal. Secondly, 75% of the "tone" requirement on most gigs is "that sound" - the sound of a country pedal steel. The remaining 25% is the basic "rock slide" tone, which can be created electronically from "that sound".

Pedal steel builders aim for "that sound" because it's what steel players and their bandleaders expect from a pedal steel. Pedal steels that sound different or distinctive are not commercially successful. Jim, it may be a "huge mistake" in your eyes for manufacturers to cater to a specific demographic, but that demographic is the only one that buys pedal steels in significant numbers.

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