Tube Amp Question

Rick Nicklas · From: Verona, Mo. (deceased)

Hey all you guys that are switching back to the tube amps (Fender in particular). What do you do for the EQ or do you even need one?

Also, how do you compare them to what you had before.

James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

I'm pretty happy with what Fender gave me on my Twin Reverb for EQ. My Shobuds sound great with that amp.

However, my amp has been recapped, to voice it better for steel guitar. The tubes you use will make a world of difference, too. YMMV

These cabs made by forumite Rick Johnson.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

If you're happy with the tone you get, nothing else is required. If you're not, a small graphic EQ will literally work wonders. For me, the regular amp bass-mid-treble controls were fine...until I experienced the tonal variation possible using amps with graphic EQ's or parametric "shift" controls. Once you have experienced what magnificent tones are really available in your steel, it's hard to go back to using the plain old bass-mid-treble thing.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Rick.

Keeping in mind that Fenders are "all cut" I tried first to put everything a 100%, and immediately found it way too high end.

My Peaveys I've always set at 0 except for a little bass and "paramid" boost. No shift.

I then set everything at half, or at 6, since my HRD and BJr go to 12.

I find that to be about right.

Keeping in mind that my 16k Sho~Bud pickups are high endy.

I recently had a tube type amp board soldering "glitch", and I expect to jar some tubes loose, and keep spares, but it's to be expected, and I've just had the BEST luck wth Peaveys. One Filter Cap, one busted knob connection on my Session 500, and one speaker that came unglued after 24 years. The Nvl, no glitches at all in 15 years of hard playing, and the Nvl112, no problems in 3 or 4 yrs. I forget....

What I like with PSG like guitar is that regardless of "low end breakup" even on the low strings, the highs or "presence" seem unaffected, and you have a very "layered" sound.

SSes seem to "squish". Not so with tubes.

Other than needing cleaner lows on some real high volume gigs, unless they're miked, I'll stick with the 2 12" Fenders I've got.

If I had a summer of road gigs, I'd certainly have my Nashville 400, if I could only have one amp. Just for reliability.

Other than that, I don't see using anything but tubes.

Just my take.

Smile

EJL

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Rick, it was a pleasure hearing you play lastnight. You did a super job on steel. If you ever want to sell that Vegas amp, let me know. Rick, I am now using a Custom Fender Vibrosonic tube amp, 1995 edition that has a 15 inch speaker. It sounds better, and more musical, to me than my Peavey Nashville 400's. The band members thought it sounded better also. Hope you liked the Rockabilly CD? How many DWI road blocks did you go through on the way home?

Rick Nicklas · From: Verona, Mo. (deceased)

Keith, thanks for coming out to the Senior Citizen Dance last night. It's kind of nice being the youngest one in the place isn't it.. Very Happy

There wasn't any roadblocks the way I went home but the cops had somebody pulled over about every five miles of my 50 mile journey, even a couple of miles from my house and I live way out in the sticks. I'm glad he had that guy pulled over or it would have been me for exceeding the speed limit at that point.

I started listening to your newest CD about an hour ago and a few of the songs so far sound like they may become cult songs like the Greatful Deads stuff. I'm up to song #7 and I could not believe the lead you put in there. Where in the world do you come up with those licks. I am definately going to try and get that one on "I'm Gonna Be A Wheel". You had some real original licks on your first album that I really liked also. I'm going to eat dinner and get back to the last 3 songs.

When are you going to put some sound clips of these new songs on your website so these guys get an idea of the different styles you are doing? The sound tracks alone are amazing practice tools for those two styles on each CD.

p.s. When I got home last night I took a flashlight and shined it on the CD cover right over my sleeping wife's face and she freaked out... Laughing

Ron Brennan · From: Orlando, Florida, USA; Formerly, Edison, NJ

Hi Rick,

I have a 1960 Fender Concert Amp (all tube) I bought new back then, and it is the only Amp I have ever used! Shocked

I have only changed 1 small tube since then, it is virtually indestructible, very powerful & very heavy. It does not have a Mid Control (just Vol., Treble & Bass on the normal channel). There is a presence control on the far right.

When I got my Emmons, I could not get the tone I wanted. Frustrated, Sad

I was on the verge of selling the Fender and getting a Peavey 400.

When I spoke to an old buddy of mine, who is a long time Amp Repair owner/operator, Dennis Kager, formerly with the old AMPEG Co. (Google his name), he was incredulous when I told him about my plan.

He said “Ron, your nuts to sell it!!” Dennis recommended getting an EQ to shape the tone, etc. He gave me a few product names to try out.

So, I got a Boss GE-7. Dennis was soooo right!! Best thing I ever did. It has given my old Fender tube amp a new lease on life. What a sound!! Perfect!! I was even able to reduce the volume setting on the Fender as the GE-7 is powered and has its own volume control along with 7 EQ. bands.

It did have a minor Hisssss however, so I had the Boss GE-7 chips upgraded & modified by Chad Matthews at:

http://www.cmatmods.com/Portal/

Chad did a great job….I highly recommend him, if your so inclined to mod or upgrade any pedal you may have.

Hope my experience helps you…….Steel on!! TX

Rgds,

Ron
_________________
JCFSGC member 2005 "Be of Good Cheer"
"55" Fender Stringmaster D8,
"83" Emmons LeGrande 77L SKH D10 8 & 5,
"67" All Original Telecaster & Original Owner
"86" Peavey Factory Modified NV 400,
"60"Fender Concert Amp 4-10"s, RV-3, Upgraded chip set GE-7 EQ, CH1 Chorus, DS-1, Hilton, BJS Bar.

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Rick, come to Nixa where I am playing on the 15th of January and you can hear a great Fender tube amp in action. Bring a comb, because the great sound of the Fender Vibrosonic, tube amp, with a 15 inch speaker will curl your hair.

Rick Nicklas · From: Verona, Mo. (deceased)

Thank you so much guys.... As I turn my attention to the tube scene I will keep in mind that a quality EQ unit would probably be to my advantage.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I have never liked EQ units at all with Fender tube amps. I find they add nothing but more stuff in the signal chain..and the simple Fender controls are plenty.

Ron - that 1960 Concert should have a cap job asap. It is way overdue and when one blows it may destroy expensive and really irreplaceable parts. It should also have a 3-prong power cord added for safety.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Rick, I am with Jim Sliff on this one, he is telling you right.

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

Rick Nicklas · From: Verona, Mo. (deceased)

Thanks guys. I value each of your opinions and appreciate the input.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I just hope Ron comes back and reads tis thread before he cooks that nice Concert...that's one of my Favorite Fenders and playing it with original caps is like hanging a hand grenade from your shoelaces by the ring and going jogging....
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Ron Brennan · From: Orlando, Florida, USA; Formerly, Edison, NJ

Hello All:

Just got back….Day Gig get's in the way of my time off!! LOL
Thanks for the feedback from Jim, Keith, Brad & Rick.

I am the original and only owner of this Fender Concert Amp. It’s been through H--L & back. Whoa!

Out of the Navy in “62”, went on the road with it two years, I and it took a beating out there, quit went into Airline industry, 43 years, still at it, retire soon. My H. S. Amp buddy & lead guitar player, Dennis Kager, went into Ampeg same time, has 43 years designing,/repair, etc and is now still owner operator of a highly successful Amps only repair, design, etc for both SS and tube Amp, he has & is a Authorized Fender Amp technician. He too had a Fender Concert back then. Google his name "Dennis Kager" for his pedigree! Anyway, I came back to Steel about 4 years ago, preparing for Retirement, etc…. I am in a band, car shows, etc and all that. I brought my Concert Amp in to Dennis for a check up. Good thing I did! Shocked

Just like Jim suggested, after Dennis went through the AMP, he urged we do a thorough cap & 1 small tube replacement. The rest of the Amp, electricals, speakers, etc were all found to be in excellent condition, etc. And, oh yes, while I power plug through a Octopus surge protector, the power cord will be swapped out for a 3 prong for safety and plain common sense. Moreover, I want the ground switch/cap looked at in case Dennis hadn’t.

Good one, Jim!! And thank you from all the classic tube Amp users on this forum for the excellent suggestions & warnings.

Now, I have always played my Fender Stringmaster D8 (still do) and have never been disappointed with the tone that I get, from both the instrument and the Concert Amp. The Amp is very powerful, used outdoors and indoors and holds its own anywhere, as it always had. Further, I use a reliable RV3 effect pedal since I came back to playing, no issues there or with the Amp.

I part company here. I acquired an Emmons SKH D10, GL E-66 pickups a little more than a year ago. I am transitioning and good enough to do Gigs with it. Of course, I run it through the Concert AMP, Note: I also have/use a Hilton pedal (Great, Great pedal Keith).

But something, tone wise, between the Emmons E-66's and the Fender Concert Amp is not there (for me). I am blessed with fantastic hearing and I’ve been around steel for a long time to know the difference. So Brad, you’re onto something there in your sensible reply. Still that said, there is nothing wrong with the AMP or the Emmons. This is where I rely on Dennis to advise me.

The GE-7 EQ with the Chad Matthews Mod did the trick for me. I offer this as an option only. I couldn’t be pleased more with the desired and achieved results, tone wise. Dennis reported to me there is nothing unsafe about pedal effects, if and used properly through the Concert Amp. I guess one mans beer is another mans champagne! Now if I could just play better!!!

Following the good and well intentioned advice from you guys on the forum is a good thing. Very Happy

And I thank you for the concerns you raised in your replies. Right now, I have a wonderful match up with the Emmons and Concert Amp using the GE-7 EQ…..tone wise and in every other way. In the end, IMHO: a tube amp (Fender) is a very good value. I intend to keep it that way for someone else down the road. I got mine 45 years ago!! Pure Luck, what did I know back then. Smile

LOL TX
Headed for Orlando, FL tomororw, Disney Cruise ship! Very Happy

Rgds,

Ron

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Ron Brennan · From: Orlando, Florida, USA; Formerly, Edison, NJ

Donny,

What you said sums it up for me.......

My "tube" Amp is now getting the "Magic" I want.

IMHO: Still, we should we take different opinions as constructive. I sure have learned alot from the different opinions I have read on the Forum.

Preventive Maintenance is key for a Vintage tube amp if you plan to get or have one. Good advice here.

The sound you desire is subjective...do whatever you have to do to get it. TX

Rgds,

Ron

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

Ron,

I was looking at the schematic to your Concert amp, and from what I can tell, and I'm not sure, but it looks like that amp's tone section doesn't quite give that steel-friendly midrange dip as found in later Fender circuits or the Bassman circuit. So I think I'm seeing why you may like the additional tone shaping that a graphic EQ can offer. Just curious, how do you tend to set that little EQ? Dipping in the middle and boosting bass by chance?

Brad

Ron Brennan · From: Orlando, Florida, USA; Formerly, Edison, NJ

Brad,

Just got back from Orlando,FL from a Disney Cruise & Parks and saw your reply.

Brad, you are right on point about this particular Vintage Fender Tube Amp circuitry Midrange dip not being PSG Tone friendly. Sad

Yes, shaping the tone by dipping into the EQ middle and boosting the Bass a bit more. MAGIC!!!

And I was/am amazed what the Chad Mitchell Mod to the EQ did as well.

Now the Fender Amp & Emmons PSG tone are extremely close, say, uhh, to cite an example, the tone of that PSG in Linda Rondstadt's hit Blue Bayou a number of years back. It's very rich coming out of my Fender Tube Amp. SWEET!! Very Happy

Anyone who is frustrated with the tone out of their older Tube Amp, this might work for them as it did for me before dumping it.

But do what Jim Sliff suggested, get a Preventive Maintenance ck on the Amp before you do anything else. This is Very, Very Important. TX

Rgds,

Ron

Jim Peters · From: St. Louis, Missouri, USA, R.I.P.

Ron tell Mr. Kager "thanks" for designing my little Reverend Hellhound amp, an outstanding little combo for guitar, but the worst amp I ever used for steel.JP
_________________
Carter,PV,Fender

Ron Brennan · From: Orlando, Florida, USA; Formerly, Edison, NJ

Jim,

Ha, Ha.......LOL...Dennis will probably be the first one to tell you the same!! Laughing

He sure does know his way about AMPS, eh? In business 40 years!! He did a great job for me with my Tube Fender Concert Amp!!

Not much call for Steel Guitar Amps around these parts though. We have a zillion Guitar players, so that's his focus. He says he knows 3 Steel players, a fella down in Lambertville, Jody Carver, due to Fender and myself.

JP..I'll buy him some coffee and sure will send him your regards......TX

Rgds,

Ron

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Ron, glad the amp is getting the service it needs. It wll pretty much last forever!

As far as tone tweaking, there are some things you can do that don't damage the collectable aspect of the amp; trying different peamp tubes (different 12AX7, 12AY7 and 5751's, primarily) will have different tone and gain structures; some of the differences can be pretty dramatic.

The other is how the amp is biased - set on the "cold" side, the amp will be very clean sounding but sometimes a bit sterile and/or tinny; on the "hot" side, it will distort more easily but be much warmer and "rounder" sounding. You can also swap speakers out and make huge changes - in a Concert you can mix 'n match different 10's of the correct impedance and get some pretty amazing sounds (4 different speakers can sound absolutely huge if they are the right combination - I've done this with a Super Reverb and the results were astounding). The only problem with speaker-chasing is it gets REAL expensive!

One last note - don't have the ground switch/cap checked, have it completely bypassed. Once you have a 3-prong plug installed the ground switch is no longer needed and in fact is a bad thing - and there's a good reason the cap is known as the "death cap"! This is normal procedure when installing a 3-prong plug on an older Fender.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Ron Brennan · From: Orlando, Florida, USA; Formerly, Edison, NJ

Jim,

Thank you so much for the excellent tips you posted above. Many of us here who have or contenplating getting a tube Amp (Fender or otherwise) can sure appreciate what you say.

As far as I'm concerned, this Concert Amp I acquired nearly 48 years ago is "forever", eh? It is operating as well as the day I took it out of the Store in NYC, oh, so many years ago. Still, like the common sense you suggest, you have to "Take care of it"

I got some extra tubes (small) as they are no longer made here from what I can tell (Russia or overseas). And thank you for great info on Tube Specs to work with!

I am very pleased with your info on the Speakers as well. My original speakers are unbelivably holding up well and I feared this would ultimatley be the Fender Concert Amp Achilles Heel....good to know your thoughts and experience on this issue.

Yes, I thought the power cord plug change would negate the Standby cap & Switch. No need to mess with the cap!

I'm not a heavy eletronics person...so the BIAS (cold vs. hot) is not real clear in my head. Can you briefly expound on this aspect? Of course, I am going to speak with my Amp Doctor "Dennis Kager" about it, but some of us might learn something here if you address this subject a bit more. Is it difficult to convert "hot to cold" or vice a versa?

Your thoughts on this subject are most appreciated. TX

Rgds,

Ron

Forum Index > Electronics		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic