TUNING THE E9th NECK (the E's)

[Steve Norman]

Guess I just gotta be quicker. The singer doesnt want any noise in between songs, and I dont want to play sour notes trying to tune during a song. Seems easier to mute, tune, unmute, play. My tunings only good for about 2 songs then I have to retune.

[b0b]

My tunings only good for about 2 songs then I have to retune.

Really? Barring a sudden temperature change, mine's usually good for two sets.

[chris ivey]

bo...i appreciate your command of the computer world and the female avatars that make it so comfortable!

[Dave Mudgett]

The singer doesnt want any noise in between songs, and I dont want to play sour notes trying to tune during a song.

Yeah, I sometimes have this also. On E9 - I generally tune by ear, when it's possible. Coming from a guitar playing background, that is a big switch - it is often considered "unprofessional" to be audibly fiddling around with my tuning during a gig - certainly in the middle of a song, often between songs, and even sometimes between sets. "Hey, we use our tuners - whassamattayou?"

So that carries over sometimes, and I carry around a Peterson, mainly if something goes seriously awry in the middle of a set. But I definitely prefer to tune the beats out by ear, using a method pretty similar to what Frank suggests. I usually tune my roots to the rest of the band, maybe just a hair sharp so the open strings aren't too out on the open-string A+F C# chord. Tuners are fine if they're all calibrated correctly and everybody tunes accurately. Not always the case - especially with, let's say, a 12-string Martin, which is present on half the tunes with my current band - it's about like trying to tune a b@njo. So I try to zero in on where they are.

Of course, there are occasional gigs that are so bloody loud that I can't hear anything. I mean nothing. The Peterson PSG presets come in pretty handy then also.

I also don't usually need to make a lot of tuning adjustments during a gig. But every once in a while - boiiing - it goes crazy.

[Joseph Meditz]

I am having difficulty understanding Frank Parish's tuning. Here are the instructions for the open strings.

F# 442
D# 436-7
G# 436-7
E 440 pedals down
B 442
G# 436-7
F# 439
E 440 pedals down
D 439
B 442

The low B and low F# will make a very narrow fifth that will beat at around 3 beats/sec which seems like a lot for a fifth.

The high B and F# fifth are tuned straight up (ET) which means that F# octave is not in tune. Regardless of the tuning system shouldn't the octaves always be in tune?

[Scott Swartz]

The high B and F# fifth are tuned straight up (ET) which means that F# octave is not in tune. Regardless of the tuning system shouldn't the octaves always be in tune?

On any other instrument, yes

If you tune JI , you have to pick whether the B-F# is a perfect fifth or the C#-F# is a perfect fifth for each F# string, this chart does one of each.

Depending on which string groups you like to play with a given F#, that could lead you to a one of each solution.

Of course you can also work around this with compensators hooked to a particular pedal, but they will not address all situations either.

Personally, I use the B-F# perfect fifth on both open strings, and when I pull the E-F# on string 4, that pull is flat of the open F# on string 1.

[b0b]

In JI theory, there are actually two different 2nd intervals: the large major 2nd (9/8 or 203.9 cents) and the small major 2nd (10/9 or 182.4 cents). The large major 2nd is in tune with the 5th note of the scale. The small major 2nd is in tune with the 6th.

I like the 7th string F# to be in tune with the pedaled C# note. Some players add small "compensator" pulls to help deal with this. I have a compensator that raises my 7th string slightly on the lever that lowers the E strings to D#. This is sort of backwards, but it works. Most people with compensators tune the F# to the B and lower it slightly on their first or second pedal. Cabinet drop actually helps in this regard.

[Ivan Rosenberg]

brain... hurting...... I've always had enough trouble figuring out where to tune my B strings (major 3rds) on the Dobro, and where to find in tune notes along the fretboard (seems like major 3rds and major 6ths generally sound better barred behind the fret). Pedal steel tuning seems like it could make my head explode : )

So far, I've used the Newman tuning and then adjusted by ear for commonly used double stops or chords that aren't sounding sweet. But especially at this stage of my playing (beginning but focusing on slow, simple, good sounding backup), I'm almost never using open strings. So given that, maybe I shouldn't be tuning those roots sharp at all? Or based on this discussion, maybe it's safest to tune the E's to 440 with the A and B pedals down and go from there? Too much for my newbie steel guitar brain cells to process...

[Frank Parish]

Joseph,

I use the 7th string a lot with A and B pedals down playing 6th chords. I also use it playing minor chords when lowering the E's. I don't tune the low F# same as I do the high F# because I use them both differently. If that makes any sense to you, I don't have compensators either. I could tune the low F# higher to match the 1st string but then it wouldn't sound good playing with the chords that I like to play using that string. Tell me this, are you looking at this mathematically or are you actually tuning your guitar and listening and playing it? I think it'll sound a lot better than it looks! Remember this is a reference point. I'd touch it up with my ears to make it sound the way I want it.

[Joseph Meditz]

Tell me this, are you looking at this mathematically or are you actually tuning your guitar and listening and playing it?

Yes I was looking at it mathematically. At this time I use a tuner and tune my steel straight up. But when I tune my six string I only use a fork but still tune straight up by tuning the open strings for the number of beats to make it ET. For me it is more fun to tune without a meter.

I would like to learn to tune my steel without one too. Also, I would like to try a non-ET tuning. I was following you OK in your first post, but after you posted the details with all those offsets, I did not understand. Besides, I don't want to use a chart. I would prefer to internalize the method so that I could tune my steel if I get stuck on a desert island.

Anyway, I will follow your instructions and see how it sounds. Thanks for post.

[Buck Dilly]

Get a keyboard player and a guitarsist over to your practice room. Try one tuning then play with real instruments for a while. Tape it. Try another tunug style. Play- tape it. Try another. Play - Tape it.
Listen. Use whatever you determine sounds best. But don't get too attached to it. You will probably find some fault, and want to change it next year. I have grown fond of straight up (then I tweak the 3's a bit). It records pretty well with variety of people.

[b0b]

Before I added the compensator, I split the difference on the 7th string by ear. That actually worked pretty well because, as I said before, cabinet drop works in our favor. When you press A+B, the 7th string drops a bit. This makes it more in tune with the pedaled C# note.

Also, when you lower the E's, the 7th string raises a bit, making it more in tune with the B strings. This effect is yet another subtle aspect of the genius of the E9th copedent.

I confess that I'm a math geek , but I've mainly used the math to better understand what my ears told me.

[Jim Robbins]

One of the problems with tuning which I haven't seen mentioned is that harmonics are not actually perfectly in tune, and the thicker or more inelastic the string, the worse they are out.

There's some articles about this here: http://www.musemath.com/sources/linksAndSources.html

The oscillation in volume ("beats") when two strings are close in tune is a result of the strings periodically reinforcing and cancelling each other out. This applies not only to the fundamental frequency but the harmonics as well. So if you try to tune out the beats completely between harmonics (which are slightly out of tune) and open strings, you are actually putting the open strings slightly out of tune. Ditto if you are trying to tune out the beats of two open strings and listening to the overtones.

Not to mention all the just intonation issues, etc. (Your just thirds are going to be flat agains the equal tempered piano and guitar; & classically trained fiddle players may have a tendency to play them sharp.)

Also, piano tuners slightly mistune strings on a single note to give it a richer sound and use "stretch tuning" to compensate for psycho acoustic factors. Check out the chart: http://www.fenderrhodes.org/rhodes/manual/ch5.html

So in terms of the physics and math it's all a compromise. When it gets really dicey ... that's what vibrato is there for.

[Joseph Meditz]

This was the first time I ever tried a non-ET tuning. Some chords seem more alive and seem to have an inner quality. Overall, the quality of the instrument is changed significantly. That part was a bit unsettling since I am used to ET. The meter on my tuner is in cents. Here is the chart I used.

Hz Ref Cents

435 440 -19.8
436 440 -15.8
437 440 -11.8
438 440 -7.9
439 440 -3.9
440 440 0.0
441 440 3.9
442 440 7.9
443 440 11.8
444 440 15.7
445 440 19.6

[Steve Norman]

Bob My 6th string drop comes back really sharp, and my b's go flat real bad.

[Frank Parish]

When I read all these different charts about tuning it just makes my head hurt. It's kind of like the knobs on an amplifier to me. I just turn something until it sounds good to me and I don't care if the treble is on ten or not. The end result is what it sounds like. B0b is correct about how cabinet drop works in our favor and outside of one guiitar that had more cabinet drop than I cared for, it's never botherd me at all. I played around with that chart that B0b posted here a few years ago and it's a very good way to learn to chime tune your guitar. Why not put that back up B0b?

[Tony Prior]

Well, plus, minus, sharp, flat, whatever..

I tune so that with AB pedals DOWN and NO bar I am in tune with the band in the key of A.

Because, at the end of the day, whatever method we use we MUST be in tune with the band or track, it doesn't matter how you get there as long as you arrive.

And yes , I start with the E's at 441.

[b0b]

I played around with that chart that B0b posted here a few years ago and it's a very good way to learn to chime tune your guitar. Why not put that back up B0b?

I don't know what you're talking about, but it's probably still here somewhere. I almost never delete anything.

[Larry Custer]

Thanks for all the response guys.I did not mean to open a big can of worms.I hear guys tunig the E's sharp and O-440.I just know someone who tunes all his to 0-440,that encludes his levers and pedals.Thanks Guys