Less reverb and less bar vibrato

Mike Shefrin · Post by **Mike Shefrin** » 17 Dec 2007 4:23 pm

I have stopped using my Boss RV3 delay and reverb unit.
I now just use a bit of reverb from my Fender Steel King and it sounds better to me. Another thing I am doing is using alot less bar vibrato than I was doing. I was over using the bar vibrato, and it just didn't sound right. I think this is a common problem with many beginners like myself, and I'm glad I have begun to remedy that problem. I think it takes years of perseverance and a real love and dedication to the instrument before one starts to sound decent on it. Finding the right steel guitar and amp is obviously important but equipment issues take a back seat for me compared to the techniques involved in playing the instrument properly. I like traditional country western music and the way the steel fits in with those songs. I love the sound of Emmons push pulls, the old Sho Buds, and also the ZB guitars. That's where it's at for me. Just my humble opinion of course.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 17 Dec 2007 4:52 pm

So much of the old country music has the steel guitar run through lush reverb and the players used lots of vibrato. Listen to and watch Bobbe Seymour and see how he uses both. He's a master at it.

Knowing how well you play jazz guitar and coming from that background, I'm not surprised that you choose to back away from reverb and delay. Curly Chalker didn't use much of either and he sounded wonderful.

Lee, from South Texas

Colm Chomicky · Post by **Colm Chomicky** » 17 Dec 2007 5:11 pm

Yeah, I need to work on my vibrato -- move away from what some call a nervous vibrato. My bar wiggling back and forth too fast, like twitching legs on an upside-down insect that has just been sprayed with some good old 1960's DDT.

John Lockney · Post by **John Lockney** » 17 Dec 2007 5:21 pm

Its amazing that Jimmy Day played without reverb in such a way that you wouldn't miss it. -- His sound was described in an earlier thread as "dry as a popcorn fart."

Mike Shefrin · Post by **Mike Shefrin** » 17 Dec 2007 5:35 pm

Lee,
I agree with you. I still use reverb and bar vibrato. I just am using less than I was before. For me it's a question of the degree of bar vibrato and reverb. In my case it's knowing when to use the vibrato, and how much of it and also when not to use it at all. That's the trick. Control of the volume pedal is another aspect that I need to work on too. So many things I need to perfect. I listen to these guys on recordings and they sound so good, and I try to emulate what I hear. Sometimes I get it, and sometimes I don't. I record myself when practicing to hear when I am doing it right and when I'm not. I think it takes years of practice until it all comes together. Some have an easier time of it than others do but there's no question in my mind that it's just a difficult instrument to master. For me it's a real challenge but I suppose that in the end this is what makes it all the more satisfying when you start to like what you hear when you sit down and play.

Mike Shefrin · Post by **Mike Shefrin** » 17 Dec 2007 5:44 pm

John,
I love Jimmy Day's playing. I just bought the Ray Price box set which has alot of tunes with Jimmy playing on them.

Mike Shefrin · Post by **Mike Shefrin** » 17 Dec 2007 5:45 pm

Colm,
lol!

Mickey Adams · Post by **Mickey Adams** » 17 Dec 2007 5:48 pm

I agree totally...In a previous band where I was plying guitar (band leader)...i tried to get our steel player off them as well. He was so BURIED in reverb that not a single note was discernable. I too use reverb and delay, but they are enhancement of the slightest nowadays...The tone of the guitar is so important...and the less we use them, the less we will miss them. Not to mention that your playing will be forced to improve, and at a faster rate without them....Just my 30 cents...(inflation)...

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 17 Dec 2007 5:49 pm

Mike

i'm a die hard classic country nut meaning if it was recorded after the 1970s i most likly won't listen to it let alone play it... and to me its a question of knowing when and where to use vibrato with a touch of reverb. many very good players slide the bar back and forth but again ( to me ) it just sounds sweeter to rock the bar

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 17 Dec 2007 8:02 pm

Actually, I think it can be pretty hard to play without vibrato, because the vibrato is used so often to mask slight pitch errors. To force myself to start hearing some of my pitch problems, I had to force myself to learn to cut back or play without vibrato, especially when practicing. In addition, no vibrato creates a different mood, and I sometimes really like that effect.

On the reverb & delay thing, one size doesn't fit all for me. Sometimes, it seems like a piece calls for a pretty lush sound, and other times, it doesn't. But they can also be a hiding place for tonal or execution problems, so I do have to force myself to cut 'em back sometimes, again just to really hear what I was actually playing.

I think, for me, most of this comes down to trying to get control of what I'm playing, and not letting the gizmos get control of me. I agree that this takes lots of time and persistence.

Mike Shefrin · Post by **Mike Shefrin** » 17 Dec 2007 8:25 pm

This is what I'd like to sound like as far as tone and vibrato go, and this guy isn't using any delay, gadgets or even any pedals for that matter. What a touch!

Click Here

Marc Jenkins · Post by **Marc Jenkins** » 17 Dec 2007 8:57 pm

I realized recently, after laying off the vibrato for a while, that I needed to use more! I was learning a few Lloyd Green licks, and that was were I was lacking most...

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 17 Dec 2007 9:03 pm

I don't really care for delay. I like a little Fender amp spring reverb on the fast ones, and maybe a little more on the slow ones. Don had it about right with his Fender amp. I'm still trying to work out the nervous vibrato that still creeps in sometimes. And I'm not as smooth and consistent with the volume pedal as I would like to be. It takes years.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 17 Dec 2007 10:03 pm

I use almost no vibrato except on more rock-oriented things with distortion; when playing clean there's just a slight rolling motion at times. Too much vibrato sounds to me like someone can't play in tune so they just play "around" the general area. I know that's not the case, but it's a style that I just don't resonate well with.

As far as reverb, it's kind of funny - I come from a heavy reverb background (starting in surf music in the 60's) but nowadays I use very little, if any. More or less the reverse of David's preference, I prefer a little delay. Used lightly it has a more natural and spacious sound to me than reverb (I use tape or tape delay emulation with a little "crap factor" thrown in that warms up the sound and makes it more "organic" feeling - dry digital delay doesn't hack it for me).

Howard Tate · Post by **Howard Tate** » 18 Dec 2007 6:15 am

Used correctly vibrato sounds good, and helps with sustain, but a wide vibrato always sounds out of tune to me.

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 18 Dec 2007 8:49 am

Jeff Newman always encouraged the vibrato on "every note". Did he use it on every note? No, but if he'd told us that then we'd only use for 3-beat or longer sustains. He often said that vibrato "warms" it up, and frequenly demonstrated it.

It's a balancing act and can be overdone. Like Dave indicated you're also helping to average out the tuning errors inherent in the beast.

I was trying last night to get strings 3 and 4 at the 2nd and 3rd fret with the A-pedal to sound better. I found that increasing trailing finger pressure helped, as did raising the bar more to its tip. Those two changes made it tough to get the vibrato in there, so I need to work on that.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 18 Dec 2007 8:20 pm

...if you stop using echo, vibrato and tremolo, there's nothing left but you and the strings. Good luck... you'll need it !

Mike Shefrin · Post by **Mike Shefrin** » 19 Dec 2007 7:27 am

I said I was using less bar vibrato and reverb. That's not the same thing as stopping altogether. Or were you making a joke? I never know when some people are being serious or funny anymore. Sorry.

Don Walters · Post by **Don Walters** » 19 Dec 2007 9:08 am

Listen to "Stinky Blue Steel" on Dan Tyack's Blackened Toast. PF plays his part totally dry with very little vibrato that I can hear. Masterful and exactly right for the piece. Kudos to DT for not adding unneeded effects.

Don Brown, Sr. · Post by **Don Brown, Sr.** » 19 Dec 2007 9:25 am

I believe, the art of good bar control goes right along with the art of good volume pedal control, for prolonged substain, as well as smoothness. I believe that if either of the two are missing, it shows up more than anything else that comes to mind. The bar hand alone, can add fullness and good intonation to the overall sound, or drastically take away from the total sound of the steel. The volume pedal can swell a note/cord hold a more or less constant, and so much more, while the timing of it, is just as important. (and yes, I know there are folks who play without using a volume pedal, who play/ed very well) However, I'm speaking of us who do use them.

Needed to get that in, so I'd not be crucified.

Stan Paxton · Post by **Stan Paxton** » 19 Dec 2007 9:54 am

Well, the vibrato subject has been kicked around a lot from time to time. That piece by Don Helms certainly is not lacking vibrato. It is very consistent and not overdone. Listen & watch closely to all the GREATS and the bar vibrato they use. Some say it is just to hid playing off key, which may be for some, but the really GREATS shouldn't seem to have that as a reason.

...IMO It brings out the feel and body & soul of the music when masterfully done. Listen to some steel music with no bar vibrato, listen to some violin music with no fingered vibrato. And listen to great trumpet, sax, flute players, they all use vibrato.

It would seem the question is not whether to or not to, but as Mike started the thread, to what degree & how executed.

Again, just study the GREATS & one can't go far wrong. ...As to reverb & delay, a matter of personal taste, what one is striving to achieve. There does not seem to be a baseline or "standard" on these items. As mentioned, Jimmy Day was a purist in that regard, and the result is self evident. But he did use bar vibrato consistently.

God Bless & Merry Christmas

Mike Shefrin · Post by **Mike Shefrin** » 19 Dec 2007 10:31 am

Thank you Stan. That was very well put. I think you understood the point I was trying to get across, and said it better than I did. Personally speaking, I think the most beautiful bar vibrato I ever heard was from Buddy Charleton. I love those recordings he made with Ernest Tubb. Happy Holidays and a happy and healthy New Year to you all.

Ron Whitfield · Post by **Ron Whitfield** » 19 Dec 2007 3:22 pm

I often listen to that 70's era CCH video by Mr. Helms, as his sound on that version stuns me. How did he do it? I too, Mike, think it's about as perfect for what he's playing as anything could be.
My attempts at this tune come off much more like his original sound on the Hank Williams single from the 50's, which is not at all a problem, but the full sound on that vid is really something and I wish I knew his 'secret'.

As for judicious use of the vibrato/reverb, I look back to what Jerry Byrd sed about using his volume pedal, 'keep you foot off of it until you really want it, otherwise you'll inevitably use it too much'. As usual, less is more. I prefer totally dry (no 'verb), or the BIG hall sound, which I then find makes me play diffently/more sparsley.

JB would also imploy a very wide vibrato when wanted, usually at the neck end and during a very slow passage to emphesize the feel.

Jimmy Duvall · Post by **Jimmy Duvall** » 19 Dec 2007 5:07 pm

If I'm having a tuning problem on stage , I find myself using more of both . I don't like it but it makes the sound fit with the two guitars . If I used the effects the guitar player used the steel would sound too wishy washy . Pure steel and room ambiance is the coolest sound .

Dale Chroninger · Post by **Dale Chroninger** » 19 Dec 2007 9:52 pm

I can't disagree with any of these comments. PSG is a very personal instrument, and I think we all attempt to acheive a sound that we think is correct. However, I've never listened to a PSG picker that I couldn't learn something from, and I've never met one that would'nt share his/her secrets. That's what makes it such a great instrument. My brother is an excellent PSG player, whom I admire greatly. I have many friends who I also admire. I will probably never play just like they do, and perhaps that's as it should be. It won't stop me from trying! After returning from the last Dairyland Steel Guitar show, I wrote, in large letters, on the chalk board in my music room 1)Bar Control, 2)Volume pedal control, 3)Play with authority. I am quite critical of my own playing and recognize that I sometimes use too much vibrato to mask poor bar control/positioning, and too much pedal to mask my continuing lack of blocking. I am basically a vocalist, who tries to play steel. I tend to be more of a "chorder" than a note picker because I'm dividing my attention between PSG and singing. That's just me...that's my style...I'll probably never be a great picker, but I love PSG and the challenge. The diversity of styles is what defines PSG.

The Steel Guitar Forum

Less reverb and less bar vibrato

Less reverb and less bar vibrato

Yep

effective